>

From a Muslim, thanks lol.
Dogmatism is the main issue in all issues related religion, and I see a lot of dogmatism from militant atheists as well. Just because dogmatism is heavily associated with different religions, doesn’t mean it can never be used against religion. That’s what militant atheism is: dogmatically anti-religion and anti-spirituality. Being Americans we all should advocate for absolute religious freedom legally speaking. Let us determine what we wish to believe or not believe, and if we disagree so be it. Laws shouldn’t be made in favor of or against religion and spirituality as a whole.
I can’t disagree with this. I was molested at church youth camp. The only time I went. My mom wanted me to make friends. I was miserable and got molested. Never again. I would NEVER send my own kids on one of these trips. >

I went on one when I was like 12 with a friend and the cliques were worse than highschool. I hid in the bathroom to avoid going to church as everything felt super force and pressured. I did not have fun. I had to sort of fight my way to just call my mom and ask them to pick me up. I lasted two days. >

The cliques were TERRIBLE. I was 12, too. And we had just moved to that area the year before. Everyone felt so fake. I just couldn’t figure out how to get an in. I did not make friends, and I started coming up with every excuse in the book to not go to church after the experience. >

I was super religious and went to a religious camp. I never made new friends at one. Luckily our camp allowed us to go in as groups, so that worked for me, but that just meant that kids going alone had it worse off.
Our camp was pretty mild on the religiousity as camps went, so I generally enjoyed it and worked there as a summer job later, but in retrospect it was not a good fit for almost anyone, as though the kids were limited to about an hour and a half of religious activity a day, the requirements for the staff was bizarre. 
I ended up being a mid-level leader there, so I did not create policy, but was expected to enforce it. They wanted me to do like two Bible studies a day and several longer activities a week for the younger, volunteer staff members. But these staff were expected to work from literally dawn to dusk, and so the only time they could all make it to the Bible study would have been before sunrise. They also stayed in the group cabins with the kids 6 out of 7 days, and so generally did not ever sleep well.
There was also a morning meeting at like 6:30 am (which is insanely after the prospective Bible study time) and I was repeatedly told that I had to write people up for being late or missing the meeting after they got like 4-5 hours of sleep every night for weeks in a row. They literally were working from dawn to the early hours of morning every day and their "day" off was Saturday noon to Sunday noon, so it was not even a day off. On top of that they were expected to spend their off time helping clean and set up for the next week, so they were not even off on their fake day off.
It was illusion shattering for me. I legitimately became depressed and got angry with the people in charge and just stopped doing anything. I just gave up and refused to enforce their stupid rules or play along with their insane legalism. 
I was probably the "worst" person they ever had at my job, in that I literally did nothing, but as I was being told that my whole job was to be a religiously affiliated slave driver for 16 year old unpaid volunteers, just being there and refusing to do anything was the best thing I could do for them.
That and I constantly lied to my supervisor saying I punished them or wrote them up, but never did so. >

Seems like that job was perfectly made for "let’s just not and say we did". 
Bible study: "Guys this is the Bible, you've probably already read it since it's literally the only book we have. Ok, box ticked, who wants hot chocolate?" >

Nah.
"Jesus was one who helped the poor, the immigrants and the most vulnerable. That's why people should push for egalitarian position, because love is good blablabla."
Proactively push for a left-wing, pro-egalitarian view. By quoting some very carefully chosen bible verses.
Forced to push an agenda? Might as well push one that benefit people. >

I had zero physical abuse situations at church camp, but I can confirm the emotional manipulation is OUT OF CONTROL and very disturbing to think back on. >

I remember, as a child, being told in vivid detail what hell would be like for those who didn’t believe. They told us about the smell of rotting flesh falling off of non believer’s bones as they cried out in agony while demons shoved flaming hot metal spikes through their eyes. This would be done over and over for eternity because they rejected Jesus. But he loves you. Took me until mid thirties to leave religion. >

…..…None of that is remotely biblical. >

That annoys me a lot.  Nothing about eternal suffering is in the Bible at all.  No Hellfire It’s been borrowed from other religious afterlife concepts.  The Bible actually says that burning someone alive was horrible and God condemned the practice.
That and the bit where people say God must need another angel when a kid dies drives me right up the wall. >


Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation Ch. 20, V 14-15.
There are more discussions of eternal suffering and flame all throughout Revelation. It's DEFINITELY in the Bible. >

Then of course it gets into the debate of biblical literalism.
Fun fact, it’s theorized by many secular and (more sensible) religious scholars that Revelations is more akin to how people write dystopian novels as a commentary on the current state of the world, rather than a literal prediction of the future. >

I am biased because I am an atheist but the debates about biblical literalism are hilarious to me. 
A religion's foundational texts, which speak to the existence of an omnipotent god who merely wants us to make the right decision about what to believe and who to worship, are so unclear that reasonable people within that religion can't even agree on whether it should be taken literally.
That bit about eternal damnation vs. eternal peace? Meh. Could be literal. Could maybe be just a thousands year old social commentary novella. >

I’m happy just letting all of them burn themselves out >

If you're going to do stuff like this you need to be loud about it. Make sure every time you are interviewed/asked about this bill you mention children being abused in churches. The religious right will be forced into a corner of having to defend actual pedophiles and groomers. >

You mean like they defend actual pedophiles and groomers right now?
Like they have for Dennis Hastert and Matt Geatz?
Hypocrisy is part and parcel of the religious right. >

The point is to make these as*holes play defense and stop letting them control the narrative of every issue just because the Democrats want to take the high road because they're afraid of offending their "friends and colleagues." No one cares about the DC theater outside the beltway. No one cares if you're on good terms with Republicans. I don't vote for Democrats so they can befriend Republicans. They aren't anyone's friends. They are enemies of the state and the people, and it's time Democrats get their s*it together and treat them as such. House Democrats have nothing to do for the next two years. There is no reason for them to not come out swinging every single day and just hammer away at conservatives. In this case, you have to make Republicans defend why they are unwilling to protect children. >

You're assuming conservatives participate in political debate in good faith. They don't. "Grooming is good, actually, as long as we are the ones doing it." is their literal unironic position on the subject. >

I know they don't and we don't need them to. We just need to be willing to play by their rules and beat them at their own game. >

I got bad news
There's only one language that fascism understands, and you cannot speak it, or even speak of it. >

You won't change conservative minds, but that's not really the point. If we keep attacking the child abuse and pedophilia, then centrists/moderates might be swayed. The alt-right has weaponized never playing defense. It's time the modern left got with the program, because it's incredibly effective psychologically speaking. >


then centrists/moderates might be swayed.

We're still pretending this is a demographic that actually exists anymore? Anyone who tells you they still haven't made up their mind is lying. They're just conservatives who are too cowardly to admit it in public. >

As someone who frequently crosses party lines, how do you square the overall agenda of the candidates? For instance, does a candidate’s voting record on abortion rights make up for their record on taxes? 
To me, it seems like it would be counterproductive from an “advancement of society” viewpoint. Just curious as to what makes a swing voter “swing”. >

Jesus Camp has entered the chat >

I grew up in church and church camps, I got an undergrad in Christian theology right out of high school. I was fortunate that my experiences were largely positive. I was licensed to preach in a major denomination. 
20 years later, and an atheist, I couldn’t agree with this more. No child should be taught the fear of hell, self, and everything else that comes along. I’ve been 20 years unprogramimg my childhood. Teaching children that they’ll suffer eternally is nothing short of abuse >


I got an undergrad in Christian theology

What are your experiences in learning theology? My shallow understanding is that a lot of people who take theology classes become atheists (conversely there are stories of converts who become really religious after reading theology). What's your take on that?
Also, what do you think about offering secular world religion classes? >

My personal experience is that I felt “called” to ministry, essentially that it was what I was supposed to do. I had a lot of questions and paradoxes I wanted answered that I felt sure could be resolved with higher education. I learned to read Greek in college as well as how to figure out what a passage was meant to say, as well as it’s historical context. 
Everything was a years long journey that started when I learned that several parts of the Christian Bible can’t be taken literally and that there’s no good way to say for sure which parts can. The parts I really wrestled with were that God can’t be all knowing, powerful, and present while we have free will. I didn’t like that chronologically the devil got more powerful as the story went on. I never got over “the problem of evil”, basically how can there be evil if God is good. 
Personally I’d say that I’m an agnostic atheist, I can’t know for sure that there isn’t a god. I love the idea of religion and a loving god, I just can’t accept the one Christianity offered me. 
As far as someone who finds religion later in life, then I’m happy for them. Anything that gives a persons life meaning, and makes them a better person is awesome for them specifically. The only thing I ask is that they and their group don’t force their values into others >

Thanks for sharing;

Personally I’d say that I’m an agnostic atheist, I can’t know for sure that there isn’t a god. I love the idea of religion and a loving god, I just can’t accept the one Christianity offered me.

Same here. I never really felt a calling but I thought I'd at least read the Bible and figure out what it was about. 
I think there is an immediate kneejerk reaction against teaching anything religious in school, but I think it is a part of the human experience. We study ancient Egyptian and Roman myths, so why not Early Christian and Muslim history? >

I love mythology and world religions, they all should be studied and scrutinized. I just wish they were all treated the same instead of our tendency to point at Christianity as verified truth. 
To poorly paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, at least the Greek gods were honest about being capricious. >

Lol, it's funny because I read somewhere that one of the reason that early Roman converted was because they were tired of their gods being so capricious.
I find early Christian history to be really interesting, because it really was changing an entire worldview. That transition period, of how people went from ritual-based polytheism to a more theologically focused monotheism really was kind of mind melting, because suddenly it wasn't just a bunch of local gods doing their thing, you got a full omnipotent god on your side. It kind of parallels the repeated invasions and then conversions of the invading of Roman Britain, first the Anglo-Saxons, and then Vikings (speaking of, there's this anecdote that because the vikings had the tendency to continue raiding after a conversion, one soldier joked that his first baptism was better).
I remember another anecdote about the Early Church (it also coincidences with the late Roman Empire, which is another interesting period). A group of soldiers saw a group of monks with bloody stigmatas and bloody crosses, and that terrified the hell out of them, so much so that they turned back immediately. Like, early monks literally believed they were fighting demons by being monks. It must've been a wild time. >

Yeah it was a wild time. There’s comparisons between Mesopotamian and other Gods that basically come down to what the weather was like. Monsoon flooding… angry gods, pleasant trade winds… loving gods. 
The idea of one loving god had to have been appealing. My hot take is that we got a little too far away from the Jesus that fed poor people and somehow landed on whatever version everyone is shouting about now. >

In the 19th century, there was scientific racism and "social darwinism" (the idea of which horrified Darwin). 
I think there is just a subset of people who use whatever excuse they can to justify their own bad behaviors. They'd shield themselves with the cloak of "science" if they could, or "religion", or anything.
I'm not too well versed on early Semitic faiths, but I read somewhere that the Jewish god was originally one god in a Pantheon. How much did the time that the Jews spend in exile in Babylon and or Egypt affect their religion?
Alec Ryrie's history of religion videos are pretty interesting for a layman. There's another interesting period in the 18th and 19th century, when the primacy of religion was starting to fade (I rather like liminal periods, if you couldn't tell), and there were these liberal theologians trying to reconcile the Church with its liberal elements, though instead the Church decided to double down on orthodoxy instead. >

Can’t remember about a pantheon off the top of my head. Reading the Old Testament and figuring out the “why” of it is interesting though. Clean/unclean kept people alive longer, no pork kept people alive, not being like other religions such as Baal kept people safe. 
A lot of the Old Testament had good intentions, it just got explained to them as “God said”. I don’t blame them either, it was a pre literate superstitious time period. >

I was sent to many of these camps as a kid and everything you hear is true. Two-week camps with church services (speaking in tongues, glossolalia everywhere) three times a day, often 1-2 hours at a time. You returned home utterly brainwashed. I stopped going to them when I was 14. First one I went to was probably at age 10. Think the movie "Jesus Camp", except they never did trot out a cardboard cut out figure of a politician for us to pray over like in that documentary. EVERYTHING else was ... not just spot on, not just a dramatization, everything in that fucking documentary was real and I experienced the same shit, just another campground and *slightly* different demonization ... oops, I mean denomination.
These camps should absolutely be shut down. Change my mind. >

Not Reddit unironically supporting a bill that even the sponsor said she would never actually allow to pass >

Yeah the sponsor even said that the whole bill is a "how do you like them apples" response to the right going after drag queens.
I am glad that some kind of sunlight is being shone on it. These camps are *extreme*. Based on my extensive experience with them ... if I could mash a magic red button and undo them, I'd have the biggest shit-eating grin knowing that future kids wouldn't have to ever experience that shit. Imagine crazy histrionic "slobber-and-tears-on-the-alter begging God to not throw you into Hell" church, but not just on Sundays and Wednesdays for a couple hours at a time. These camps are all day, every day, and I can fucking promise you that they really make effort to not reign any of that shit in especially when they know that your home is an hour or two away and you can't call your parents. Camp employees were allowed to call them on your behalf, and whether or not they did was up to their discretion. You were not allowed to speak into the receiver of a phone. These camps were always two weeks in length, by the way. The last one I went to, I got physically cornered by Masters' Commission men and interrogated on matters of faith and I feared for my physical safety. I'm not a woman so I didn't really have the same worries about being predated on, the men who touch the girls may not also touch the boys, but they will sure get aggressive and bow up at the boys. Like, what are middle school boys ever going to do to some grown-ass men (Deep South/Louisiana - checks out)? Now, 12-year old you needs to fawn properly so that you don't have to feel an iron grip on your arm by some 20 year old camp employee and be dragged out of the sanctuary by him because you weren't convincing enough when asked to bow your head and close your eyes.
Not all church camps are like that, I get that. This denomination was Assemblies of God which is Pentecostalism without the dress code, and holy shit lots and lots of aggression. Walk into any AoG church with a Biden shirt on and I guarantee you'll have no problems getting into a fistfight in the parking lot.
If not an outright ban, at least some kind of third party regulation is sorely, sorely, sorely needed, man. I get that banning the hypothetical 1-day progressive Methodist summer camp in Colorado where they actually teach good things is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Thing is, I definitely don't see the christian nationalists agreeing to any sort of oversight because they won't admit that this is either 1. real, or 2. if it is, it is just religious freedom. I mean, they don't even pay taxes, why should they give a shit about accountability? No one is checking behind them. It is their business that they'd rather "scare you into going to Heaven than love you into going to Hell", and by that they're totally doing all these kids a favor.
I kind of doubt that the bill's sponsor is even aware that shit is *that* bad in these camps. Most people aren't. I try to talk about this subject with as much emotional detachment as I can, but it is hard sometimes. >

Since everyone is sharing their horror stories, I would share that one of my only positive experiences with religion as a youth was basically at church camp where I realized it was largely the edifices of churches and the terrible behavior of my fellow humans that represented those places that shaped my negative feelings when it came to religion.
The bill being used as an example of failure is fitting for a lot of the same reasons. >

I'm trying to unpack your sentence to understand what you are trying to say.  It sounds like you had a realization.  You had your realization while at church camp as a youth.  Having that realization was one of your only positive experiences with religion.  But what that realization was is tricky
Your negative feelings about religion were shaped by:
* the edifices of churches
* the terrible behavior of your fellow humans that represented those places
Edifices are buildings.  Are you saying that church buildings were part of why you had negative feelings about religion?  Like, if you took away the building, it wouldn't be so bad?
"My fellow humans" just means people, right?  So, "the people that represented those places"... What places, the edifices?  The church buildings?  People that represent church buildings could mean the clergy or it could mean the congregation or maybe both?  I'll assume both.
So, that leaves what?  The doctrine, scripture, God, prayer, and music?  So, you are ok with all that, but it was ruined for you by the people and the buildings?  Did I get that right? >

Edifice can also mean a large, complex, and established system, and realistically it's a mix of both.
Everything that went into creating and maintaining these elaborate cathedrals and megachurches that represented religion outside the confines of the camp experience compared to what was basically one of those metal barn buildings for an assembly and lunch hall, and three smaller wooden buildings that had been built by a few congregations at least a generation before I was born.
I had never seen an unhoused person for instance, but I had friends who I knew had gone hungry and things like that same as most poor families. I know those massive buildings with beautiful architecture are supposed to bring about some kind of awe, and the megachurch facilities are often sold as some kind of boon to the community, but it really didn't, and they really weren't.
The people at the camp were mostly kids with hindsight the ratio of kids to adults was even higher since I definitely would view most of the counselors as kids today. The adults were respectful of each other, but more importantly the kids that were there. Very little negative interaction in general. 
There was some bible study, but it was real study, trying to understand passages through different translations and frankly felt more like an English class lecture than some kind of proselytization. 
On the flip side Sunday School always felt like some kind of questions discouraged indoctrination-fest. 
So much of religion is about the value of community and fellowship for obvious historical and societal reasons, but it was very difficult to understand or see the value in the church community prior as in my experience it was so often toxic and negative, and that's just the parishioners themselves to say nothing of some of the hate speech that flies around from pulpits.
Seeing something as huge and with so much baggage as religion stripped bare of as much of the "extra" as possible in that sweet spot of being young enough to not be jaded, and old enough to see things for more than face value, allowed me to have a moment of insight that has served me well when it comes to interacting with religion and spaces of community and fellowship regardless of faith.
The fact that most of the things being attacked like drag queen story time and the like are about bringing people together in fellowship around something positive like reading stories to children being related to church camp..  where I learned about bringing people together in fellowship around telling stories to children... well, it resonated.
Reading a lot of other peoples very negative experiences around their own church camp visits is really bringing it full circle for me in how lucky I am in that regard, and how it's not coincidence that it's always these same scumbags in slightly different garb. >

Yeah, I get that.  Makes total sense.
Church is (or should be) for helping and healing broken people who want to change, for lifting each other and finding God together.  Unfortunately, too often it is far from that.  Camp is a nice humble place where it's easy to get back to what it should always be. >

toldya those frightwinger lunatics should be more careful about their bans, coz they can be turned around on you LOL
Don't like drag queen storytime? No more bullshit biblecamp then :) >

They’re counting on their judges to rule that this is totally different. >

Well playing politics with the law is why every conservative judge was purchased their seat after all. >

Never heard of judicial activism? >

Yes but it's never called that by the Right-wingers when it's in their favor. >

Time to end childhood religious indoctrination.  Teach a child how to think, not what to think. >

Without childhood indoc, religious participation would be practically nonexistent >

We can only hope. >

I mean it does. Religious dogma doesn't stand on much of anything, and the only reason it is still very much a thing is because of indoctrination at the younger age before one can think.
That's how it survived, otherwise it would have died because it doesn't stand scrutiny. >

As an athiest, i say good.
But this is NOT going to be good publicity for swing voters. >

If swing voters want to stand with child abusers then that's on them and honestly there is no winning those kinds of people over at this point. >

"Those kinds of people" meaning people who think churches should be able to run summer camps for kids?  That's like 90% of the population.  If you think that's an unreasonable position, I don't even know what to say. >

"Those kinds of people" meaning swing voters who stand with child abusers.  It's not written in code. >

I don't "stand with child abusers". This bill is stupid as fuck. >

Congratulations. >

I went to a Jewish summer camp. It was privately owned and really other than offering synagogue on the weekends to kids who wanted to go and the food being Kosher there wasn’t anything religious, but it was specifically designed to cater to people of a specific faith, well and me my parents misread some stuff which is how a Catholic ended up there.It was extremely secular, but at the same time not really and it seems like something that could create loopholes, not because it was Jewish, but because it was supposedly a secular camp but by catering to those of a religious bent I could see it becoming exactly what they want to shut down. >

Jewish overnight summer camp is a very significant part of modern Jewish North American culture, and indeed has even left a mark on American culture as a whole. Wet Hot American Summer, for example, is modelled off a Jewish camp. Ben Platt credits his time in Jewish summer camp with where he developed a passion for performing. Any attempt to blanket ban Jewish camps would be met with such extreme push back from the entire Jewish population in North America. We really love our summer camps >

Yeah but most “Jewish” camps are Jewish like the YMCA camp I went to was “Christian” - extremely secular. Not… the far right types described elsewhere in this thread.
(I was raised Catholic, and time after time it’s been secular Jews who helped me when folks to the right hurt me.) >

I'm a raging atheist, but this is such a blatant first amendment issue that you'd have to be an idiot not to see it. I understand it's a "gotcha" move to protest the anti-drag stuff, but the problem is that they're just gonna crow about how sexuality isn't a legally protected class on a federal level and continue to not give a shit. The gotcha doesn't work when they have no shame about the situation. 
This is just meat that they can throw to their base and accomplishes literally nothing because its also such a clear cut first amendment violation. >

Thank you for a reasonable, strategy-minded take. Everyone having a circlejerk over this is clearly getting their frustrations out without seeing the downstream consequences
I'm reminded of the saying "If you fight with a pig in the mud you both get dirty, but the pig likes it." >

Most of the comments seem like they unironically support the bill, even though the sponsor said she’d never actually let it pass. Oh Reddit, never change >

These comments are hella cringey for sure >

Don't forget the pedophilia. >

I get the visceral appeal of this and the point they're trying to make. But this is exactly the sort of thing that the right pulls out to suggest Democrats are "anti-religion" and only drives moderate voters away. It's absolutely shit praxis. 
We need everyone we can get to recognize and hold off the rise of fascism. Pushing away fence sitters and moderates doesn't help. Instead they should be proposing bills defending free expression and protecting LGBT people from state interference. >


this is exactly the sort of thing that the right pulls out to suggest Democrats are "anti-religion" and only drives moderate voters away. It's absolutely shit praxis.

Right! Talk about tending to an issue that affects virtually no one and costs shit tons of votes. Fuck me. >

It's not even going to pass. Why even make a statement like this? It's only going to give republicans more ammo and its going to drive away the moderates. >

I went to church camp , it was my only outlet to meet kids my age from different towns and ironically teach me there was different ideas and secular music and also help me develop other interest besides church.  Lot of kids used it for what I did.  Seeing ppl from all walks of life by means of church transportation >

I was sexually abused at youth camp. As a counsellor. 14 year old counsellor to "troubled kids", many of whom were my age. Abused by a man 11 years older than me, trying to help me pray away my gayness. (after molesting me) 
Went on for years. These places are evil, even when run with the best intentions. Sometimes the best intentions are evil, but too ignorant to realize it >

If these people really care about Child Safety and indoctrination, they would be on board with this. Religious groups are the biggest source of danger to children, period. >

I went to church camp as a kid. Shit was weird.
I was in California so it was a bit lighter than some of the Deep South speaking in tongues things.. but they still really laid on the guilt for not being Christian enough. I always felt guilty, because I loved being with people and going to camp, but never was as in to Jesus as everyone else. 
I finally got a bit more education and experience and left the church the summer I turned 15 and refused to ever step foot in one again.
I kept going to my secular/ocean summer camp until I was 17 though. I still loved camp. >

Churches are a tax exempt business and guilt and social pressure are their bread and butter. Jesus always needs your money! >

Call em what they are. Groomers. The GOP supposedly hates groomers. >

I wish we had a different word for them. Dog groomers and self grooming just sounds bad now. >

Going after actual groomers (both sexual and ideological). Awesome. >

Tit for tat GOP. >

Kids are infinitely more likely to get abused by a priest than they are by a drag queen reading a book in the library. >

Of course they are, but the priests are gonna make damn good and sure they wipe out any potential competition >

Then why aren't they going after Republican lawmakers? >

Just tit for tat >

Growing up in the Christianist grooming Cult, and having adults trying to trick us into thinking the shite in the Bible was true, have to agree. The Cancer of Christianism is a metastasizing disease of stupidity. >

Every democrat should be as loud about this as the right is about drag queens. >

The real groomers. >

Finally! The real monsters! >

Make churches adults only. You have to be 18 before going to church. The language their textbook uses alone should give it an “R” rating >

If you made religion adult only, religion as we know it, would be dead in a generation. The only way it is self perpetuating is through childhood indoctrination. No rational, critical thinking adult would believe in any of the outlandish shit that makes the foundation of most religions. >

That would be a good thing, no? We feed the tooth fairy and Santa Claus to kids at the same time we feed them Jesus. Try feeding the tooth fairy and Santa Claus to an adult. We need religion to die off >

Not with adblocker! Crazy crazy indoctrination >

I too enjoy the ad blocker cult my friend.  Peace and ad free on your path. >

I grew up going to church camp. I looked forward to going every summer. I made a lot of friends and it helped me to not be as shy. I’m very thankful my parents gave me the opportunity to go. I had a choice. I made a decision to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior when I got older. I hate that this is the way people feel about it. No one in my youth group had a bad experience >

I also grew up going almost every year. I had tons of fun, so did all my friends. People in the internet like to call all religious organizations "groomers" and "cults" so I'm not surprised there is so much negativity in the comment section. >

It sounds like there may be two types of camps. I also went to a very moderate Christian summer camp. No hellfire. No speaking in tongues. Nothing culty beyond your baseline protestantism and way too much church every day.
It was horrible, but not in any of the ways I'm seeing in this thread. It was a physical bootcamp, everyone was sick all the time, and being forced to stay up late for prayers when one is completely broken from over-exertion and cold exposure certainly taught me not to trust adults and not to trust the church — but ultimately in a way that was more or less legal and with manageable levels of trauma.
I don't know what the solution is. By now, we know well that some sects of christianity are sheltering child molesters. There are also some sects of christianty that are going all-in with the homophobia and misogyny. Perhaps even the majority of them in some parts of the southern united states. Obviously, if we can find a way to shut down these summer camps that doesn't cause worse externalities, we should. >

Geez, yeah mine was nothing like this. Volunteers ran the camp and they were super nice. We would go do mission work in the community during the day. Worship in morning and night. Free time after mission work. It was a blast. >

It's full of child sex grooming self proclaimed 'hot youth pastors' >

They aren't wrong. >

Correct. >

Considering what has happened at many of them, past and present, I could agree with this. >

Fight fire with fire >

It’s about time. >

I like the idea but this is likely a violation of the 1st amendment. >

I feel one hundred percent ok saying that far more kids have been harmed by religion than by rainbow flags, pride parades, and drag shows. >

I support this. Children have no place in church >

when i went to church camp in 7th grade everybody was getting finger banged on the bus at night on the way there.
then on sunday you had like a huge jesus indoctrination night and everybody cried.
good times. >

This is so currently relevant for me. I have been researching summer camps to suggest to my son. So many of them are religious affiliated. My kid is not religious and he would probably think the evangelical emotional manipulation stuff was so bizarro world. I really want to believe that the camps affiliated with the Presbyterians or Episcopals are ok and not overly indoctrinating? >

The State Senator proposing the legislation had this to say about her own bill.

This is an amendment that I will use to make a point about the underlying bill, LB371, which bans all-ages drag shows. It won’t pass, I would withdraw it if it had the votes to pass. It’s a device to make a point. We need not clench nor worry. >

It's sad that this even has to be pointed out. The senator, unlike most of this subreddit, isn't delusional enough to think that this bill would be Constitutional. >

My brother was sexually molested at the church community center where we all hung out as minors. Don't understand why these scum still get tax exemptions. >

The original groomers. >

The church should turn the camps into communities for those in need. Since that’s the Christian thing to do or whatever. >

Bout time y’all clapped back >

It should be real. Religion is mass delusion. We shouldn’t let them indoctrinate children with superstition. >

100% the people that are doing a lot of "for the children" shite demonizing LGBTQ+ over unproven and entirely made up claims will stand 100% against actually doing something "for the children" over repeated long term factual information. >

Omg this would be amazing if passed. >

I went to these camps for 4 years.  Every year a cop car would show up randomly some night after dinner. When we kids asked what was going on we were always told “it’s not your concern”. Yeah um a cop showing up at a fucking remote mountain camp at night is pretty damn concerning.  The next morning all the adult would be whispering thing like “I had no idea they were like that” so not very subtle any now with an adult mind I know what was going on. Fucking perverts >

Absolutely.  Republicans, pay attention!  Here’s your grooming and indoctrination. >

Yeah. My youth camp counselor exposed himself to our cabin every day, saying that’s how it is in the army. I mean, he didn’t touch us or make us look but it was weird as hell this grown ass man was getting naked in front of a bunch of 9 year olds. I was ready to leave on day 2. Also the stupid counselor would make us fold all our stuff every day (like we’re in the army) but that made all of our wet towels smell like mold… cause they needed to be hung up. 
Fuck camps in general, doesn’t need to be religious to be weird >

From the article: "She proposed the amendment to make a point. The penalties and language echo a Republican bill to ban drag shows for anyone under 19."
ITT: serious people agreeing, with scars to show. >

I wish more politicians would stand against the religious right and finally tax churches. >

FIANLLY, someone calling it what it is.
Grooming. >

Most Christian churches have nothing to do with actual Christianity, especially in the US.
Every year the number of people who identify as religious drops and yet new churches are going up everywhere. Somewhere along the way someone is fleecing people, and it’s all tax free. >

Lol Point made. >

What point? The point that the Constitution only matters to your kind when it supports something you approve of?
This is a clear 1st amendment violation. >

As a victim of church camp abuse I hope this goes through >

Legislative clickbait.  Clearly this is what we should spend our time on. >

Good! Fight fire with fire. >

Grooming and then also molesting kids in the name of white Jesus. Bunch of pedophiles. >

To take a leap of faith, you should at least be 18. >

The world would be a better place if religion didn't exist. >

Did many good things too - one of those things you can’t generalise to that degree >

What an absurd argument.  John Wayne Gacy volunteered at children’s parties among other charitable endeavors.  Guess that balances out the other “stuff” he did according to your logic.
Any of the rare good deeds that religion has done, can and has been done without fairy tales and atrocities that religion is better known for. >

It’s wild to me how many people in this sub don’t notice (or care) what a wild violation of the First Amendment this would be, and it would pass exactly 0 legislative bodies.  Not to mention what a turn off it would be to swing voters, moderate voters, and anyone who cares about the constitution.  Just lose lose lose lose.
This is just doing exactly what the right does but being absolutely terrible at it.  Let’s focus on legislation that improves people’s lives and is actually constitutional instead of culture war bullshit. >

It’s weird how the ultimate authority for kids are the parents according these people, unless those parents do things we don’t like. 
I don’t have kids, but I’ve gone to drag story times with a friend and her daughter. The kids had a blast and all seemed thrilled that someone took the time to tell a story with such enthusiasm. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but it certainly doesn’t teach kids to be angry or mean or afraid. >

The Church is hiding the Groomers >

Fuck yea. We don’t need these groomers assaulting anymore of our kids. >

There's no way this is constitutional.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof >

Raping kids isn’t constitutional, neither is churches campaigning from the pulpit. Eventually we’re going to have to hold churches to the same standard as everyone else when it comes to crimes. >

I'm happy to see them fighting crazy with crazy
Also, church is definitely much more dangerous than a drag show. >

She proposed the amendment to make a point, but the right-wing media will ignore those subtleties and scream about how "Democrats want to ban church youth camps!" >

Tbf, half the comments here are ignoring the subtleties and unironically supporting the bill >

As much as I dislike religion this reeks of an unconstitutional attack on a civil liberty that will not stand up in court. Religion itself is a hotbed for oppression and abuse of all kinds but when we let  government infringement upon a civil liberty rather than harshly punish offenders, make it easier for civil litigation against the churches, and remove tax exemption for churchs that cover up abuse (all Constitutionally legal by the way), we all lose a little because it begins a stack of dominoes falling. Which liberty will be next because of misuse? >

How is the government supposed to punish offenders when you make the argument they can’t be punished because of religion? 
How many priests have the various churches moved around the globe to avoid prosecution for raping children? Can you make me any other organization on earth with so many pedophile rapists in it that never faced consequences? Literally any other organization…. >

I'm not into religious indoctrination, but this seems like a clear violation of religious freedoms. None of us should be cheering for the erosion of our rights. >

Kids should be with parents. Parents should be with their kids. 
Simple. >

This is going to be top reddit content in the comments I have no doubt. >

Religious grooming. >

Hell ya. >

I disagree. My own sentimentality aside (bc my memories of church camp are overwhelmingly positive), for some kids, that’s the only place they’ll EVER connect with people outside of their bubble. Someone will have different ideals than them and that’s where the conversation starts. >

good luck with that >

This won’t make it to senate. There’s no way. This is as polarized as the bill for life support on aborted fetuses. No chance. >

Let's talk about more bills that will never pass! >

Is there actually a higher instance of child abuse at religious youth camps? >

Yeah this goes against "and the free exercise thereof" part of the first amendment... >

Ah shit republicans are about to lose their mind on this one >

Grooming. >

Grooming >

At first, I thought "This feels no better than what Republicans are doing," then I saw that this is to make a point about what the Republicans are doing. >

Disclaimer: I am a Christian and went to youth camps.
I think there can be positive youth camp experience regardless of ideology. However, when there is a position of power over children, there needs to be intense safe guards. 
It wasn't until I wasn't until I was an adult that I learned cult tactics like Love Bombing and public confession. I still question some of my memories with camp. 
I don't know if banning is the correct form, but I would be down for third party oversite. It definitely needs to be looked at regardless of ideology. >

As someone who went to these camps and conferences this is %1000 accurate. Even if it's not sexual abuse the shaming and emotional manipulation is so disgusting. The Church can be a hot bed for some of the worst human beings imaginable. Which is ironic, the only people that ever talked incessantly about sexual predators was the church and yet the only people I've met that ended up being pedophiles and rapists were from the Church. It's despicable how many girls were taken advantage of as teens. The only times the girl didn't get blamed or the only time there wasn't a coverup is when there was too much evidence and the cat was out of the bag (Look up Jack Schaap former pastor of mega church First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana) >

Yes, do it! What a fantastic idea! Anything to limit the power those pedophilic monsters have over children! >

I love this. >

Me too. >

This is how you lose your seat in the next election. >

I live for the pettiness. I'm just so tired at the double standards of the Religious Right when it comes to grooming and ACTUAL child sex abuse. >

They are not all bad. The problem is churches that disregard and twist the Bible into a book of hate to serve their political agenda. Maybe if more who know the Bible teaches love, faith and hope would speak up more, at least some who hear twisted renditions would recognize they are being misled. Don't want to go down a road of banning this and that. >

The only way we could afford for me or my brother to ever go to camp was for us to go to a Methodist-owned Church Camp.
I got to do camp things, and even found a love of bicycling because of a "bike camp" I got to do as part of one summer.
Listen, I know there are shitty Christians, and they piss me off.  But before you just lump all Christian camps together, consider those that allowed us dirt poor kids to do something fun that only rich kids could afford. >

Man this isn’t going to go over well. >

Sen. Lankford may have something to say about this. I mean he did run one of the most largest ~~sex~~ church camp in Oklahoma. And I believe had one of the highest teen pregnancy and std rate in the country >

They’re not wrong. >

I agree a lot of these camps go too far and indoctrination should be banned, but what constitutes indoctrination in all seriousness?? 
Is it what’s going on at these camps? Is it merely teaching kids about what is God and about Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha etc considered indoctrination, even if they’re taught in a non dogmatic way? Cause I’m in complete agreement with the former, but not the latter. 
Let people learn about what they wish to learn about at any age, but let them make the decision for themselves about what they wish to follow or not follow, aka religious freedom. I, as a Muslim, am against dogmatism of any kind, both for and against religion. And I know about dogmatism as I have to see and feel the results of the morons that are the Islamic puritans who shout loudly in Islamic lands and online. >

The bill is satirical. >

that's where Grooming begins >

If you really care about ending child grooming this is a good step. >

I imagine the right’s response to this bill would be something akin to “Bible camp is a constitutionally enumerated right.” Time for Church of Drag! >

Something tells me the "protect the children" folks wont be rallying around this >

Let’s call these camps what they are: Grooming camps >

All churches should be regulated as adult-only entertainment. >

They're grooming hotbeds >

Call them what they really are - grooming camps. >

I hope this not only passes but is expanded. Religious targeting of the youth is disgusting. >

Part of me wants to ban all kids in churches because of the dumb drag bills and churches are where kids are actually molested but this is a good step towards progress. >

Oh boy I love this. >

With how much sexual abuse in churches that has been exposed in the past few years - children shouldn’t be allowed in church at all. 
Church is probably one of the most dangerous places to bring children. Predators love churches. They know they get access to vulnerable people there. >

Predators also love schools, should we ban schools? >

Mandated reporters. Read about it. If you don't report possible abuse as an employee in a school you go to jail.  Even if you weren't the abuser. Cases are reported as a result. 
Churches don't have this.  Therefore the massive amount of abuse will never be uncovered. >

Churches should be barred from allowing anyone under 18 to enter. They pose a well-documented danger to children. >

Wait till you see the statistics on child abuse in Schools, you'll freak! >

That’s a good start but what about the Church itself! >

I’m all for this. Religion is absolute poison in the world, but I did have my first kiss at Bible camp and my counselor/bunk master whatever dude taught us a really gross parody of Yesterday,  called Leprosy lol! It was pretty fun for the most part. Just a bunch of kids hiking and canoeing and flirting. 
The church stuff was so minimal and no one but the counselors and preachers took it serious.  Obviously this isn’t what happens at some of these camps but the one I went to was fun. >

Holy fucking shit that is one of the most unconstitutional things I have ever read. >

I'm an anti-theist.
I'm very much against religion... but this is fucking wrong. You absolutely should go after all child abusers... but that's not what this is about. This is about attacking religion.