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Should I preemptively confess after submitting work that was partially generated by ChatGPT?
A month ago I submitted a piece of coursework which still hasn't been marked. When I wrote it for some sections, I made notes with ChatGPT, which I was supposed to rewrite in my own words, but I forgot to. Just yesterday I reread through it and I realized I plagiarized.
The essay is 3k words long, and 300 words are from ChatGPT.
I want to email my lecturer and explain this to them. Because the coursework hasn't been marked yet, I want to ask if they can mark me down by ignoring all plagiarized sections. I also want to apologize to them for wasting their time and being dishonest about my work. What should I do?
I don't know if those sections will necessarily be flagged as plagiarized, but I want to avoid that happening. I'm not here to ask for sympathy nor scorn; I'm already very ashamed of myself.

Related: Is changing some words plagiarism?

Here is a related answer with communication of this kind.

FWIW don't use generative AI to try to write anything.  To know whether it's writing nonsense or not you have to know the field, and to claim that you have to be able to articulate it.  Getting stuff out on paper can be hard, particularly at the beginning---but articulating is part of the learning experience.  There are other techniques which can help if you're using GPT to solve the 'how do I say X?' problem.  If you're using it to solve the 'what should I say about X problem'... don't.  It will mislead you heavily one of these days.

Note that one of the biggest issue with ChatGPT is that it can just make up things (and appear extremely confident about it). So it's not a question of re-writing what ChatGPT writes, but of actually checking what it says, understanding it, verifying that it's not all made up, and that it actually answers the question.

In some sense it makes everything up—it just gets lucky often of the time in that what it “makes up” is actually true. What I mean is that GPT doesn’t actually know anything or have any concept of facts—it’s a language model, and its only expertise is in stringing words together in convincing fashion.

I applaud your honesty, but you're asking us how to cheat the hangman. You didn't explain to us how much of the other 90% was ChatGPT-generated and then rewritten by you. Future employers are evaluating and paying you based on their expectations of what skills you learned in school. By not doing the work yourself, you're failing to gain those skills. In short, you cheated, and that will catch up to you. If you think rewriting ChatGPT is a legitimate way to pass your classes, then this lecturer's marks on this essay are irrelevant. Frankly, don't use ChatGPT again.

Plagiarism by most accounts would require a human agent at the initial point. I appreciate that plagiarism and copyright are distinct ideas but they clearly overlap, and the output of ChatGPT would fail any test for copyright-ability because there is no human agent.

@CrimsonDark It is definitely plagiarism if you don't cite the source, no matter whether the source is under copyright, or copied with permission.

@gnasher729 I am not disputing that the university rules might prohibit the use of ChatGPT but no ordinary reading of the word "plagiarism" encompasses the use of ChatGPT. Six different dictionaries including Merriam Webster indicate that "plagiarism" means the passing off the work of another person as one's own work. That is not what is happening

Perhaps the question should be changed to something like "what is likely to happen if I preemptively confess...?". Whether the OP should confess depends on too many personal factors such as their risk tolerance, likelihood of getting caught, ability to cope with unpunished past mistakes, etc. Also most of the responses are answering about the consequences anyway.

Paraphrasing doesn't absolve you from plagiarism. You can plagiarize using none of the original words. Even if you had re written "in your own words" you would still be plagiarizing.
If you weren't supposed to use something like chatGPT but did, then you have a violation already. If you paraphrased and submitted you would have two violations.
You can ask for mercy but you have things to learn, I'm afraid.

Whether or not a complete rewrite constitutes plagiarism is significantly more nuanced than this answer makes it seem. If the only contribution from ChatGPT is structure, not content (in the sense that OP critically reviewed and verified everything, if not adding it themselves), then it's not plagiarism - assuming that the assignment itself is not about the writing skill itself (such as an English essay where the topic is not the focus of the exercise). On the other end, if OP did a word-by-word rewrite without revisiting the core message being conveyed, yeah that's plain plagiarism.

I disagree with @Flater. From the perspective of an education, where both the content and the process of writing the essay are part of the experience, there's no practical difference between rewriting something ChatGPT wrote and what your friend wrote in the same class last year. Even if using ChatGPT, as suggested, to simply do the legwork that the student then verifies later, it's still not original research by the student. Maybe "plagiarism" is too specific a word to express the totality of the failure - but fail the student did, by contriving to have someone/something else do the work.

@JBH: That's not what I meant by the structure/content distinction in my comment. You're talking about ChatGPT still generating the substantive content and the student merely doublechecking it. I'm saying that there's a difference in rewriting the content of the output versus slightly tweaking the phrasing to make it look more original than it is, they're not the same w.r.t. plagiarism. Additionally, this whole "ChatGPT is inherently plagiarism" thread is pointless, as pre-ChatGPT I could take any other work and replicate its structure and there was no meaningful protection against that.

@JBH Unless the focus of the exercise is to learn to write (which a native language class often entails), the focus should be on the content and arguments, not the originality of the grammar. The student should be confident in what is written, understand it, and be able to back it up and elaborate on it - but this argument is not related to ChatGPT, it's related to literally any form of cheating, whether it is a parent doing their kid's homework, plagiarizing existing works on the subject, or asking ChatGPT. ChatGPT did not create a new problem, it created a new scenario of an existing problem

@JBH: While I absolutely agree that blind reliance on ChatGPT is as much cheating as blindly relying on any other resource would be, that's not the point I'm making.  What if they asked a parent for a better way to phrase a sentence and they provided it? If a student used a thesaurus for more elegant synonyms, would you consider them to not be original? What if they had a friend or parent proofread it and provide feedback? What if a student heard someone phrase something eloquently and applied a similar rhetoric in their own speech structure? Where do you draw the line on originality?

@Flater Those are good points, and had the OP suggested that the original content was hers and that ChatGPT simply gave her some pointers, I wouldn't be concerned. But the OP used ChatGPT to provide original content. That's no different than taking a friend's paper, handing it to the parents, asking for some more elegant phrasing, and then turning it in. However, if we're in agreement about the use of ChatGPT for original sourcing of information, then I apologize that the agreement is violent.

Although you seem to have shown some remorse for your actions, simply owning up to a dishonest act doesn't really give you the right to request how your assignment should be marked.
Admitting fault to the lecturer would be the ethically correct thing to do, but how this act is punished is up to the lecturer. If you admit fault and appologize you might earn a lighter sentence than otherwise, but again, that is for someone else to decide.

how this act is punished is up to the lecturer --- In some places (e.g. UK)  it is not up to the lecturer. Plagiarism cases are dealt with by Academic Panels, following strict guidelines, and the lecturer is not involved in decision making.

Imagine that you commit a crime; not a hanging offense or felony, but at least a misdemeanor. You intended to commit the act. Should you now confess? To me, your scenario seems much the same as this scenario.
If you intend a life of crime, confessing is clearly a foolish thing to do. If you do not intend a life of crime, and regret the error of having committed the crime, what good comes of confession. I find it difficult to see how the obvious public interest in punishing crimes, which here equates to university interest in punishing either plagiarism or the use of ChatGPT, is advanced by your confession.  Clearly others disagree.

First things first, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to take responsibility for your mistake.
There is no denying that you have made a mistake and you have been sitting on it for a month. The most advisable course of action is to acknowledge it before the assignment gets marked, which will help you get ahead of the situation. In the perception of your lecturer, your admission of guilt will be interpreted in one of two contexts: in relation to the plagiarized sections (implicating 300 words / 10% of the assignments) or in relation to the plagiarizer (implicating your entire assignment). There is no telling which way his/her/their judgment will lean.
No matter what, my advice will be not to ask or propose how you think the assignment should get marked for the following reasons:

It may appear as hubris on your part. Any marker who is aware that they have to examine a dishonest work will most likely NOT appreciate being instructed by the guilty party how to perform their duty and how many marks to allocate. If you attempt to influence your marker into giving you less penalty, you will seem like an entitled person. Therefore, you should allow your lecturer to determine how they want to deal with your assignment.
You should consider yourself very fortunate if the lecturer merely penalizes your entire assignment (by assigning it a 0) and refrains from taking any further administrative action(s). If your lecturer marks very generously by penalizing you only for 10% of the plagiarized assignment, I think you should express your gratitude to your lecturer at the end of the semester and pledge to never repeat your mistake. The latter scenario is highly improbable, given that the assignments are randomly subjected to double-checks for quality control at the end of the semester in most of the prestigious institutions and the instructors are reluctant to incur the responsibility of erroneous judgments by showing undue leniency to the students.
It is generally accepted that, within any academic system, voluntary acknowledgment of plagiarism can mitigate the severity of the penalty, but the assessor (in this case, the marker) retains the discretion to impose a harsher punishment. So, I think you should hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Sometimes, the markers are legally compelled to report cases of plagiarism to a higher authority. It will considerably help your case if you disclose first, admit your error, and save some time and effort for the marker. But it will inflict more damage than benefit if your admission is accompanied by an unwarranted request to grant you partial marks for the satisfactory sections of the assignments.

Having said that, when it comes to ChatGPT and other generative models, we should have a separate discussion. Most of my students who consulted ChatGPT typically regarded it as a semi-conscience being, a consultant who they thought searched the internet and formulated its own decision by gathering search knowledge. Most students thought that ChatGPT was a purely generative model that can be distinctly driven by students' individual prompts (the process they 'proudly' denoted as their own "creative directions") and therefore its outputs can be construed as the students' own thoughts. A lot of prestigious schools even embraced the students' use of ChatGPT, in its early stages, for helping them out with their assignments. But as it turned out that they were completely wrong and ChatGPT merely stitched some information (verbatim) from the internet in a fluent manner, which can NOT be interpreted as the user's own thought and will be regarded as plagiarism. If you belong to this misguided cluster, you should present your case to your lecturer accordingly and indicate that you had an impeccable record up to this point (I am hoping so judging by how ashamed you are for this), which should act in your favor.

Your writing style is relatively distinctive. I've spotted a couple of common grammatical errors (a missed space after a full stop, for example) and some variations in capitalisation (chatgpt vs. ChatGPT). If your lecturer is paying reasonable attention to your writing rather than just skimming it for keywords then they'll almost certainly notice that the bot-written section is not your own writing.
Most universities are also using plagiarism detection software precisely to root out people who use bots and internet sources to get around having to do the work themselves.
Given the high likelihood that you'll be detected, my advice is to get ahead of this by rewriting that section comprehensively (e.g. not just by paraphrasing the bot-written text) and then submit the entire thing again with a sincere apology explaining that you've accidentally copied some text in from a source that you were reading online. There's a solid chance that your lecturer will simply take the old version of the essay and throw it in the bin.

"There's a solid chance that your lecturer will simply take the old version of the essay and throw it in the bin." Really? I would never take an assignment a month late from someone and just be like "Sure, I'll grade that assignment you took an extra month on" ...

@AzorAhai-him- Even if the student had a plausible reason to replace less than 10% of the wording? That seems excessively harsh. OP is coming in strong with an apology and a very reasonable alternative.

@AzorAhai-him- And given the likelihood that they're gonna get caught and get a zero anyway, what's the downside?

Doesn't feel very fair to all the other students in the class to take someone's revisions a  month later, no matter the reason, does it? If a student emailed and said "Hey, I wrote a better paper," would you just take it?

@AzorAhai-him - OP hasn't received a grade on it yet, which suggests it's still in the lecturer's inbox. A sincere oops would cover this, in the same way that my university accepted a late submission because I attached the wrong graphs and didn't t spot it until after the deadline

Suppose it depends how much value you attach to deadlines. If your students know they're permeable, and you can just turn in a better paper whenever you like, your approach would be acceptable.

@Valorum: The issue isn't with it being graded or not, the issue is with this student getting a significantly later deadline than anyone else without prior approval. They effectively forced the situation by submitting plagiarized work and then asking for leniency in fixing that. Even if the leniency itself were accepted, the extra reworking time that it entails remains an ethical obstacle. Your graph example does not entail you making the graphs after the deadline, but OP would effectively admit to doing the rewrite after the deadline, that's a big difference (albeit on trust by the lecturer)

@Flater - But what does he have to lose? He's likely to get caught, so the worst outcome is that he loses the mark. At least he's not going to get pinged for plagiarism if he openly admits it

This “that you've accidentally copied some text in from a source that you were reading online” isn’t quite accurate. OP didn’t accidentally copy from an online article; they gave ChatGPT a prompt and copied the text. This wording is suggesting OP replace one act of deceit (for which they are remorseful) with another more deliberate one.

@bob - Well, yes. But he's swapping a lie that can be proven (plagiarism) with one that is essentially unprovable. Now I do agree that this is ethically unsound, but I think that ship already sailed here.

@Valorum: There is a vast difference between "try this long shot since you've got nothing to lose" and "this is a reasonable request that would generally be accepted". Your answer didn't quite make it clear that it was a "ballsy nothing to lose" attempt rather than what is considered good practice. The long shot is still not risk-free either, in the sense that it may damage the chances of getting marked down by some arbitrary amount but not to a failing grade if the OP just admits to the mistake and does not try to shoehorn some extra material that was written past the deadline.

@Flater - I think the issue here is that you've decided that the question is "What should one do", whereas OP is asking "What should I do". The other two answers are just berating him and are in no way useful

@AzorAhai-him- - A lot of lecturers don't particularly care about deadlines. They have them there so that stuff gets done in time for when marks need to be submitted rather than to limit the actual time to do the assignment. Personally, I've never had an issue getting an extension (as a student) or granting one (more recently) for any reason. In this particular instance, you'd be rewarding integrity and honesty (albeit belated depending on whether you believe this was "accidental"). It would be counterproductive to punish the behaviour.

@ScottishTapWater Sure. I grant extensions frequently as well. But a post hoc month long extension that’s not “sorry I’ve been hospitalized for a month” wouldn’t fly.

I think this is really stretching a discussion of “rewarding good behavior.” These people are adults …

@AzorAhai-him- Adults make mistakes and admit their faults. They don't get punished like children

@AzorAhai-him- If you take the claim of this being an accident at face value, you've got someone who's realised they've fucked up, admitted their fault and are trying to fix it. The point of academic assessment is to see whether or not they know the material or are capable of the assignment. The course of action most conducive to that purpose is to allow them to correct it.

@AzorAhai-him- Also, they're adults, but they're young adults. Neurological development doesn't really finish until your mid 20s and even after that people can and do continue to learn and change as they grow. Regardless of how old someone is, you want to reinforce good behaviour.

This is getting too far into the comments so I won’t carry this conversation any further but I maintain that it’s inappropriate to allow someone to submit an assignment a month after everyone else barring an emergency or something. Making sure your assignment is ready to submit and doesn’t include copy pasted passages (??) should be done before the deadline, not after. I absolutely see our role as assessing learning, not rule following for the sake of rule following but even in the abscence of a curve, everyone else managed their time and revised on time.


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Does a professor's lack of belief in you mean you're a bad researcher?
I have always struggled with confidence issues and impostor syndrome. Which means that I have never believed that I'm an extraordinary researcher, getting by at best.
But I have done some things that I personally am proud of. For the first few years during my PhD, I hardly had any independence in research and I was just working on the ideas that my professor pitched. I mostly worked with many collaborators, getting a paper in 6 months in average over 3 years.
Then, over the last 1 to 1 1/2 years, I wanted to test my boundaries and do my own independent research, get my own ideas and work on them, despite some resistance from the professor. I am proud of this. I think it was brave of me to venture out into a topic that my professor isn't an expert of. But unfortunately, it didn't pay out well since I have only published one paper in the last 1 1/2 years and that's quite less for a senior PhD.
But nevertheless, my reasoning behind the below average paper outcome is due to the fact that I was working without collaborators, a professor who didn't have a lot of idea what I was doing, and a topic that was new to me and it took a long time to get a grip on it. Plus there were other non-research things, like paper revisions, response letters, presentations, thesis writing, postdoc applications, and so on...
So I try not to blame myself fully for it.
But my professor does and he has openly said that my performance hasn't been satisfactory. Our relationship, which started of well enough I would say, has started to take a really downward spiral towards the very end (I have only a few weeks left in this group now, need to submit and defend my thesis now) and I think he hates me. This may have happened because I said I wouldn't do some tasks that he wanted me to do, because I was too stressed. I also accidentally missed a meeting or so with him due to my own carelessness (rarely happened in the entire duration, so bad timing) and it may have added up.
Now I only get outward criticism from the professor as to how bad a researcher I am, and passive aggressive behavior from them. This has all happened in the last couple of months towards the very end of my PhD and it is leaving a very bitter taste in my mouth as this was not how I pictured finishing my PhD.
After so many years, I thought I would be able to overcome my impostor syndrome and finally get some confidence about my capabilities as a researcher but I'm no way near it. The added disappointment from my professor only proves that perhaps I'm not meant for research at all. It's very hard to objectively understand if I'm doing my best or if I should have been doing better, as my professor says.
I'm hoping the experts of this channel can weigh in so that I can think of this non emotionally.
P.S. I do not want to reveal my field for anonymity, but I have much less number of papers published compared to my peers in the group and in general, the paper output is higher than what I have. I also was the only one venturing out by myself in a new topic while others have done whatever professor said.

Is the criticism of your supervisor constructive, i.e., do they tell you what exactly the problems are they have with your work, and how you could improve? Did you try to get feedback that is as constructive as possible, i.e., did you ask for what exactly the problems are, how to improve, and what the expectation would be?

Of course the general answer is no. It is possible that your professor underestimates you and assesses you wrongly. However we of course can't have any idea about the quality of your work and understanding, and whether any criticism by your professor may actually be justified.

@ChristianHennig they did not give any constructive criticism, they only said I haven't been dedicated enough and the only thing that measures my performance is the research output which hasn't been demonstrated. So the feedback I got was 'Work harder' but I believe that I have worked really hard so it fell on deaf years. I didn't ask for specific constructive criticism either because honestly I was spell bound and didn't expect it, and it made me very resentful. Perhaps I should remedy that and ask for constructive criticism instead of taking their remarks personally.

No-one here can tell you whether or not you are a "good researcher" or whether you "should have been doing better". In any case, those are irrelevant questions. The relevant questions are, what are the next career steps you want to take, are you or are you not on track to successfully take those steps, and what to do if you are not. Brooding on meaningless questions like "should I have been doing better" serves nothing, while building confidence in your ability to do meaningful research rather than giving too much weight to other people's assessment will help you grow as a researcher

First of all, I'm someone with less experience than you, so if you find something you don't agree with in what I'm saying, you're probably more "more right" (I put the quotes because in this kind of topics nobody can give universal conclusions, of course).
That said, my experience is that in many research departments that publish a lot, they are so prolific because the researchers in that department become great experts in their field and there are very few people in the world doing the same thing as them. Thus, when they publish an article, sometimes their only job has been to get things out on the table and organize them. Clearly, the value of this will end up being negligible.
The above may not be your case, but the following, taking into account what you describe, maybe yes. There are many aspects of a person's personality that influence the way they do things. For example, there are those who paint a picture starting with a sketch and there are those who start with a corner and end when they have finished the canvas. Is one thing better than the other? Well, it doesn't have to be. In your case, it may be that you are much more careful with your work than your teacher (so you may be slower), you may try to be more independent and ask for less help when you run into a problem, perhaps your curve of learning is exponential and that of your teacher is quadratic or something similar (so that at first you learn slowly but in a certain time you will be able to overcome it)... These things cannot be measured and almost nobody takes them into account. However, they are factors that influence a lot.
Finally, all of the above may not work for you, because real life is not fair and you may be good but you don't adapt well to the rest, so your possibilities will be very limited. As a conclusion, I think that thinking about how good or bad you are in a certain thing is useless in the end: if you think that you are better than you are, you will not get your full potential; if you think you are worse, you will have a bad time; if you know how good you are... well, that's almost impossible to know. The only important thing is hard and honest work, that will take you (if you are not very unlucky) exactly where you deserve.

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As a MSc. in Civil Engineering what are my chances to find a fully funded Ph.D position in Bioinformatics?
Having graduated with sub 3.0 GPA BSc and MSc with a 3.5 GPA in civil engineering and despite currently working professionally, I am considering a possible career change into bioinformatics. Continuing in my current field of expertise makes obvious sense, however, my gut feeling draws me more to bioinformatics. Considering these conditions what is the possibility of getting a bioinformatics phd position in either the USA or Canada as an international student seeking full funding?

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Graduate School admissions
I plan on applying to graduate school at the end of the summer when the application opens. I have 4 prerequisites left to take before admission if I get accepted as I am currently in my senior year of undergraduate. If one prerequisite I need to take is retaking a class because I have C+ and need a B, will that affect my candidacy since I do plan on retaking it when I have time next spring?


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Teaching problem with needy mathematics student
I am currently a monitor of a discipline called Real Analysis. My role is to help students enrolled in the discipline with the resolution of exercises.
A colleague sent me a message, in a state of desperation, asking me to provide him with the answers for assessment list 2 (which will replace test 2, since the entire class had low grades).
The teacher asked me not to give answers. But I feel sad for this colleague. I see that he has difficulties, but he is already a warrior for trying to overcome them.
Should I feel bad for not helping someone who is begging?
What worries me is the following:

Due to my lack of attention, I ended up solving a question on the evaluation list for one of the students in the course.

I helped students. I told them if I thought their demo was "ok".

This particular student has learning problems.

You can't give a student solutions just because they are struggling, just inform the coordinator of the students difficulties. The more courses you teach, the more often you will encounter students begging for answers, it is unfortunately par for the course in many courses.

Please clarify your question. Are you a student or a faculty member, and who are your colleagues. Your question would profit from some geographic information since you are using vocabulary that is not present in my country. Also, consider removing Analysis from the title as it makes the question misleading.

Giving solution to a student who is struggling is not helping them (to learn). Your job is to help them to master the subject matter. So you should feel bad if you give them solutions instead of help.

This may be a better fit for the Mathematics Educators Stack Exchange. However, you should clarify the other concerns identified by @Thomas Schwarz (besides what I just fixed with the title). In particular, the use of "colleague" seems odd, since where you used the word, it sounds like you are talking about another monitor (do you mean T.A. in the U.S. sense, tutor in the European sense, teacher's assistant in some sense, etc.?), but later on it seems to make more sense for "colleague" to mean a student in the class.

I took the liberty of changing your title to reflect what is apparently your genuine question. Feel free to change back, etc.

"Should I feel bad..." is not a good start for any question as feelings are not a matter of choice and have to be respected rather than being a matter of what "should" be felt. Better ask about actions.

It would be wrong and counterproductive to provide answers. You are there to help them learn, not to bypass learning to maximize grades.
You should discuss this with the professor, pointing out the struggles of this student and asking whether you should continue to help them (with learning) or whether your current state of experience is such that someone else should take over.
Saying that someone's work is OK seems fine, as it is their work.
You can also refer the student to a "learning center" if something like that is available. But, first, talk to the professor.

What is a learning center? A support center for dyslexia and similar learning disabilities? I am not familiar with this term.

@FedericoPoloni, some universities provide various "learning support" centers where students can get advice on study habits and learning techniques. They probably are distinct from disability offices.


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Seeking Advice on Obtaining a Recommendation Letter for PhD Applications
I am currently in the process of preparing my PhD applications in mathematics, with a particular interest in Additive Combinatorics or Elliptic Curves. As I embark on this journey, I have encountered a predicament regarding the selection of recommenders, and I would greatly appreciate your insights and guidance.
During my 12th grade, I had the privilege of being tutored by a school teacher who possessed exceptional skills in various areas of elementary mathematics, extending well beyond the standard school curriculum. His passion for teaching and his dedication to imparting knowledge to enthusiastic students have had a profound impact on my academic growth. Even after successfully securing admission to a reputable institution for my BS-MS program, I continued to maintain contact with him, as his teaching prowess remained invaluable to me.
Under his guidance, I delved into a multitude of topics that were not covered in my BS-MS curriculum. Specifically, I studied, among other things, everything in books such as Burton's "Elementary Number Theory," Edwin Clark's "Elementary Number Theory," covering topics like Residues, Quadratic Reciprocity Law (with some proofs relying on elementary facts from Group Theory), and even an introduction to Cryptography and the RSA scheme. Additionally, I also studied almost everything from "A Walk Through Combinatorics" by Miklós Bóna, which comprehensively covers Generating Functions, Partitions and Stirling's Numbers, as well as Graph Theory, Ramsey Theory, and certain probabilistic methods. Furthermore, he assisted me in understanding renowned proofs from "Proofs from the Book" that do not require very advanced mathematical knowledge.
Moreover, I am fortunate that my teacher holds me in high regard and truly believes in my abilities. I know that he will provide an exceptional recommendation letter if I approach him. However, I am confronted with a challenge: he is officially a school teacher without a PhD or research experience. While he possesses a wealth of knowledge, his lack of academic credentials in the field of mathematics raises questions about the impact such a recommendation letter would have on my PhD application.
Therefore, I kindly seek your advice on the following queries:

What effect would a recommendation letter from my school teacher have on my PhD application, considering his expertise in elementary mathematics but without a PhD or research experience?

In light of my circumstances, would it be advisable to include a recommendation letter from him in my application?

Thank you for your time.
Edit: A comment by Dave L. Renfro in the Mathematics SE post of the same introduced me to this link and pointed out that I haven't mentioned which country I will be applying for. Although I haven't decided upon any specific choices yet, I will mainly be applying to US, Europe and a few places in Canada.
Edit 2: After some discussion in the comments of the Math SE and Math Overflow posts, I decided to add some clarifications in addition to my original post. I understand that if it was indeed true that my main contact with this person was before my Undergrad degree, then there was no question about it since he has no idea what kind of a student I now am. But, as I have mentioned, he has really taught me a lot of stuff (that weren't in my BS-MS course otherwise) that may even be useful in the areas I will be applying for. Now, I understand that people reading his letter will have no way to evaluate this person's credentials, so they won't know how informed their opinions are. Also, if the teacher has no PhD himself, he almost certainly has not been on the other side of the table evaluating PhD applicants, so it is not so clear that a strong letter by him will necessarily tick all the boxes that advisors (Europe) or PhD programmes (North America) are looking for. Hence, my question (reframed) should probably be whether the negative points outweigh the factors that are in my favour, the main one being that I am guaranteed to receive an outstanding letter from him (to the best of his abilities).

Of possible relevance to your question is How does the admissions process work for Ph.D. programs in Country X?, although I suspect the answers there are not sufficiently extensive and detailed to include your specific concern. Also, it would help to have some idea of your prospects for letters written by faculty where you've studied after secondary/high school. For example, if such faculty don't know you very well for some reason (e.g. COVID disruptions of physical class attendance), then probably this should be mentioned in your question.

First, since it's not explicitly mentioned in the question, let me quote (most of) the (relatively highly upvoted) comment of Andy Putman from the Mathoverflow post:

...my personal advice as someone who has read a lot of PhD applications is that it is unwise to get letters from anyone other than university faculty who have taught you in some form. There are 3 issues: 1. it makes it look like you don't really understand the grad school application process, 2. people reading the letter will have no way to evaluate this person's credentials, so they won't know how informed their opinions are, 3. this person's main contact with you was before your undergrad degree, so their knowledge is out of date.

As you say in an edit, this person mentored you throughout undergrad so the 3rd issues is not at play.  Still, as the person does not know how to write recommendation letters for a PhD program, and what they've mentored you is not particularly advanced mathematics (though good things to know), I think Andy's advice holds for top-tier, competitive graduate programs.
For mid/low-tier programs that have trouble attracting strong applicants, if this person is able to write a good letter showing you're motivated to learn mathematics outside of your classes, you work hard, and you're bright, then I'd say this letter could be helpful.  (Though it could also be detrimental if the person writes some things which are strange from our perspective.)
One thing you don't say is what country/type of university you're coming from.  If the faculty at your university have PhDs from North America and/or Europe, they should have at least some idea of how to write appropriate letters, and their letters will be most important.  But if not, then letters from your regular faculty might not be any better than one from your high school teacher, and so the latter might make more of a difference.

I would recommend, fairly strongly, that you only use a letter from this person if you can't get strong letters from university faculty that you have worked closely with.
That isn't to denigrate this person or your experience, but the fact is that a doctoral program isn't really about "learning math" but about research, and this person says they have no real experience with that. You want letters from people who can honestly and enthusiastically predict your success at math research.
The problem is that most places the number of recommenders is limited (usually about three) and you can probably find people enough who are better qualified for such a prediction.
The other issue is that the competition is fierce and the people who decide are used to more traditional -research focused- sorts of letters.

Make sure you find a way to thank this person for contributing to your development.

A strong letter from your secondary school mentor can't hurt, since you did relatively advanced work with him. That he does not have an advanced degree will not matter. But that letter can't be decisive. The PhD admissions committee will want to see recommendations from faculty who know your undergraduate work and can speak to your potential for research.

Thanks for your answer. I also had a talk with the mentioned person about this and as expected, he confirmed that he would be very happy to write such a letter. But, he asked me what his approach should be since he doesn't have any experience in mathematical research. I would like to forward that question to you.


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Asking about PR sponsorship after receiving an offer for a non-tenure track teaching position
Suppose a candidate finishing their PhD (in mathematics) is applying for teaching-oriented positions at universities, such as Assistant Teaching Professor, Assistant Professor of Instruction, Clinical Assistant Professor, or Lecturer. While these positions are typically not tenure-track, many of them are also not considered "temporary" positions. For example:

These non-tenure-track faculty positions are considered career positions that are not temporary, but with the expectation of reappointment and promotion.

(And disregarding the university's perspective, I believe a position is deemed non-temporary for US immigration purposes as long as there is a guaranteed funding for a minimum of three years.)
Depending on the university, these non-temporary teaching positions may be eligible for permanent residence sponsorship through EB-2 Special Handling Labor Certification (“PERM”). For example, University of Wisconson includes “Clinical and CHS faculty with primary teaching responsibilities who were offered the job within the past 18 months after a proper national recruitment was conducted” in the list of eligible individuals.
Question: Is it considered appropriate for the recruited employee to inquire about the university's willingness to submit an EB-2 special handling petition, as well as about the level of endorsement from the department, once an offer has been received?
On the one hand, it seems to me that it is inappropriate, because they don't know about how well the candidate would perform their teaching duties, whether they would want to keep them, and whether the department would be willing to pay all the processing fees (which the department is obliged to do by law, as far as I know). But on the other hand, EB-2 special handling petitions must be filed within 18 months from when the final recruitment was posted. So if it was posted in October 2020, the petition must be filed by April 2022, and by that time the candidate will have only worked one full semester at the university (assuming they started in Fall 2021), and it's still hard to evaluate their performance. (Edit: Some sources suggest that it is “within 18 months of the final selection of the scholar by
the University”, in which case the university may have two semesters of teaching evidence instead of one.) While some universities have an official policy, such as requiring candidates to work for a year before initiating any immigration petitions (in such cases, it is unclear how they handle the filing of EB-2, possibly through re-hiring or considering EB-1 instead), many universities do not have a clearly defined publicly available policy regarding this matter. And even if they do, it still wouldn't hurt to make sure that it is still in force.

[clarity] Is it considered appropriate, for the recruited employee, to inquire about the university's willingness to submit an EB-2 special handling petition ... ... or are you asking ... ... Is it considered appropriate, for the HR dept or hiring committee, to inquire from the department about the university's willingness to submit an EB-2 special handling petition,

The former. I've updated the question.

If you don’t ask, you won’t know. Yes, it’s appropriate to ask. And if it’s a difficult question to answer for the reasons you outlined, well, answering a difficult question is one of the things that people in high level decision making positions (e.g., department chair, hiring committee chair) are paid to do. So the fact that the regulations regarding EB-2 special handling petitions may force the department to make a risky decision is not a reason not to ask the question. Moreover, a well-run university and department will likely have a standard policy on such matters, since the question is likely to come up routinely. In that case, the question won’t even inconvenience anyone.
The answer may not be what you want to hear, but it’s appropriate to ask.
Source: personal experience as professor and former department chair.

Question: Is it considered appropriate for the recruited employee to inquire about the university's willingness to submit an EB-2 special handling petition

If the university/college has a Policy or Guideline or Rule for PERM, like that of Brandeis or the University of Wisconson you quoted, then it is appropriate to inquire.
If otherwise, you might have to 'sell' the idea/concept to them: I'll presume at the time of offer.
RE 'sell': concise well researched brief.
Seltzer has an interesting write-up on PERM with reference to case law worth exploring.
Form I-140 petitions for EB2-1 Advanced degree seems to enjoy relatively fast processing for now. Obviously, there're no guarantees.
[Addendum] You might want to give EB2-NIW a shot.


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What constitutes a competitive masters application for a profile geared towards Theoretical CS?
I find that there are too few accounts of what constitutes a good TCS profile. I am a math and CS undergrad currently going into my 4th year, and hence am posting here. I am (currently) very interested in computational complexity theory. I have undertaken reading courses and mild research projects in algebra, (quantum) cryptography and algebraic complexity theory. I will be doing another internship next year, and will spend a year doing research before applying. My end goal is to do a PhD from a top university, and do impactful research. I will be graduating top of my class in math, and am maybe in the top 10% in CS.
I find the generic MS profile geared towards AI/ML, and have barely seen any TCS profiles. These applicants have a publication(or two) in decent conferences. However, when I see PhD admits(for TCS) in top universities, they rarely have any publications in their undergrad. So, is that the norm in TCS? Am I at a disadvantage because my profile is not in AI/ML(not that this is going to change anything, I want to pursue only theory, but I want to know what my chances are).
So, I am wondering what a typical masters admit for someone with a TCS profile looks like.


text:
Should social sciences paper always have policy recommendations?
I am an early career researcher and my interests are in education, gender and economic development. I have some research ideas that mainly explore some interesting patterns of behavior at the family level/national level, but I don't think the patterns necessarily have policy implications. Neither can I suggest any actionable policy recommendations based on the observations.
Is it possible to publish such papers (namely, those without policy recommendations)? I am not aiming too high and am content with journals ranked B or C (ABDC). Could anyone also suggest what to include in the discussion/conclusion sections of such papers?


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Trouble with exercises and problem solving in graduate math textbooks
Firstly I'd like to apologize if this is too much of an opinion-based question. I do not know where else would be appropriate for such a post, if there is such a place please let me know.
I am very interested in mathematics, particularly mathematical physics, but I currently do not have access to an institution or any professors. As a result I have mainly been self-teaching myself through textbooks. My usual routine is to very carefully go through a chapter in a book, making sure I understand every step in every proof, and then move onto the exercises. Going through the proofs this way helps me measure which theorems/results are more important, and also helps me learn common methods of proof. This part of my studying is going fine and I'm able to finish the chapter and understand most of the material, sometimes with the help of other books or online resources such as math stackexchange.
The problem I have been having is with the exercises. I use these as a way to reinforce the material and test my understanding, but also as a way to develop my problem solving skills. I very rarely am able to solve a problem in any graduate math textbook I have read (which I have already finished 2-3), and have trouble even getting started with them. Eventually if I make no progress I open a question on stackexchange, or try to find a solution online which I usually am able to follow but I would not have thought of myself. I want to get to a point where I can actually do these exercises and not just be able to understand the solutions. I am beginning to question if I'm just not cut out for it or if my approach is wrong.
In summary, I am able to read about these topics and understand proofs written by others, but I struggle on actively doing the math myself. I am looking for some advice on how to develop these problem solving skills and do better on the exercises. I have taken a look at similar questions on this site such as:

Is solving all of the exercises in a textbook a good idea?
What is a recommended strategy on exercises in a mathematical textbook at graduate level?
How should I go about reading mathematics papers and textbooks as a PhD student
Try exercises or look at the solutions for self-study
First year Math PhD student; My problem solving skill has been completely atrophied and continues to decline

The advice given in the intersection of all these posts seems to be more practice and to get help/hints from your professor. As someone who is self-studying and often gets stuck on where to even begin, I am not sure how to apply this advice and I would love to hear what working mathematicians would advise. For example, when I don't know how to start or I am stuck what should I do? I often think about the problem for some time but get nowhere, only to find a clever trick or small lemma should have been applied.
For some reference on what kind of books I am studying, I am currently going through the following:

Methods of Modern Mathematical Physics Vol 1. (Functional Analysis), by Reed & Simon
Mathematical Gauge Theory by Hamilton
Partial Differential Equations by Evans

Generally questions about the content of specific fields are outside the scope of Academia.SE, and I think this question basically boils down to "how do I learn math" which is too broad for any Stack Exchange site.  It is however very normal for problems in graduate-level textbooks to be extremely difficult, so do not be discouraged!

One general tip though - when you do solve problems, with or without help, make sure you are learning not only the result but also the techniques.  When you see a "clever trick" for the first time, think about how and why it works, how it generalizes, and try to develop intuition for it.  Then you will have a better chance of seeing where to use it next time.

Compared to those books you mentioned, how is your experience with solving (proof-based) problems in 'less advanced' topics such as real analysis or linear algebra?

@NateEldredge Thank you for your advice. Should I remove this question?

@JochenGlueck I learned both fields in a very unconventional way which was over time and as I went. For example, I did not read a real analysis or linear algebra book in a focused manner and at one time as I'm doing with the graduate books I mentioned. As a result I'm not sure how I would describe my experience in those topics, but I'm sure there are a good amount of questions in Rudin's PMA that I would struggle with.

When I read "making sure I understand every step in every proof," I got the impression that you  might be looking so intensely at details that you're missing a bigger picture. It's good to understand all the details, but I'd suggest that, after carefully reading a chapter as you've been doing, and before moving on to the exercises, you should go through the chapter again to get a broader picture of what's going on. Perhaps just review the theorems (skipping the proofs) and try to understand how they fit together and what the key ideas are.

@AndreasBlass Yes that is correct, I focus on the details so that I'm not fooling myself in understanding a proof, but I've noticed at times I do end up losing sight of why we're doing a certain step to begin with. A good example of this is in functional analysis or PDE when a string of inequalities appears. I try to work out for myself why each step is justified and I usually end up figuring it out on my own, but I sometimes forget why these inequalities appeared in the first place. As a result I have a hard time coming up with those kinds of steps on my own.

@CBBAM: Thanks for your response. Your sentence "I'm sure there are a good amount of questions in Rudin's PMA that I would struggle with" is quite hypothetical, though. No matter whether you studied real analysis and linear algebra in an unconventional way, it is important (in order to give an answer that fits your situation) to know whether you actually did do a good amount of problems in those topics and, if yes, how well that went.

@JochenGlueck Thank you for your response as well. I wouldn't say I've done a lot of problems directly in real analysis, and even less so in linear algebra (though I do feel more comfortable with the latter). Most of the problems I've come across in those fields have been in the context of other subjects. For example, I really got a good grasp on much of the theory behind linear algebra once I learned about $L^p$ and Banach spaces. Likewise, I did not fully utilize concepts and techniques from real analysis until I started studying measure theory (though I had learned about them before).

@JochenGlueck With that said, should I revisit those subjects and do problems or would it be best to continue learning what I need as I go in these more advanced topics?

@CBBAM: "For example, I really got a good grasp on much of the theory behind linear algebra once I learned about $L^p$ and Banach spaces. Likewise, I did not fully utilize concepts and techniques from real analysis until I started studying measure theory" Ok, just to be sure I understand correctly: Did you (try to) solve a significant amount of problems when you studied $L^p$- and Banach spaces and measure theory? Or is your study of the graduate books mentioned in your question the first time that you engage in solving (or trying to solve) a large amount of problems?

As other contributors suggest, it is extremely important that you are able to write a proof for any considerably less advanced statements / exercises. In my opinion, there is no point in studying functional analysis if you can't provide epsilon-delta proofs when half asleep.

@JochenGlueck Yes I did try to solve exercises when studying those topics, but I often ran into the same problem of not being able to do the exercises on my own. While I did study the solutions until I was able to understand every step, I'm not sure how helpful that was. If I may be hypothetical again, if I were to revisit those $L^p$ or measure theory problems I think I would do better now but I'm sure I would still struggle with a large number of them. For reference, the book I was using was Folland's Real Analysis.

@ThomasBakx Thank you for your comment. I am able to write proofs for some very easy problems, for example showing that the limit of uniform limit of a sequence of continuous functions is also continuous. A step above that is about where I begin to struggle. Should I start revisiting analysis/linear-algebra problems as part of my studying? If so, what is the suggested way I should do this since I'm already familiar with most of analysis on a conceptual level.

@CBBAM I see, so in that case it seems there is a gap between the subject you're trying to grasp and the ones you already truly grasp (which, as you acknowledge, is very different from understanding proofs that are already presented to you). Do any of the books you read state formal prerequisites? Maybe we can take it from there.

@ThomasBakx Yes they state prerequisites but they are very general, for example they might say familiarity with manifolds or $L^p$ spaces. What makes it hard for me is since I already know the subjects conceptually I don't know if I should read an undergraduate book from page one and start my math journey over again or if I should just do problems. My main goal is to develop problem solving skills.

@CBBAM If your main goal is to develop problem solving skills, then there's your answer. You say you know the prerequisites 'conceptually', so, for example: can you give me a definition of the tangent bundle of a smooth manifold without looking it up? Forgive me if it sounds like an elementary question. Can you state the inverse function theorem? Do you know the definition of a differential form of degree p? If the answer to any of these questions is not an immediate 'yes', then you won't be able to solve problems that refer to these subjects.

@ThomasBakx I am able to state the definition/theorem of all the concepts you mentioned, and I can even have a discussion about them on an intuitive level and state some of their properties. The part I have trouble with is if you asked me to prove a theorem about them.

Have you tried opening a question on SE Mathematics giving one or two examples of such exercises asking for how to go on finding a proof for such a statement rather than asking for a solution?

@ChristianHennig Thank you for your suggestion, that is a good idea.

I expect that what you lack is appropriate mathematical experience and maturity.  Graduate-level textbooks often assume a level of mathematical maturity that is different than the "logical prerequisites".  You're also hampered by the lack of mentors/classmates to discuss things with.
My suggestion is to begin by going through easier (e.g., undergraduate) books in your area of interest, where you can do many of the problems on your own.  That will help you naturally improve your problem solving abilities, and make it easier for you to understand more challenging books later.
You can also look on Math StackExchange (e.g., questions with the [book-recommendation] tag) for recommendations about books for either your particular interests, problem solving, proof writing, etc.  And if you don't find exactly the the kinds of suggestions you want, ask a new question there.

I'd strongly second the observations of this first paragraph: it's not just having the "formal, logical" prerequisites, but also having enough experience with those prerequisites so that they are now "second nature", rather than requiring conscious thought or recollection. Somewhat parallel to the difference between knowing the rules to a sport, and playing it... much less playing it well. :)

Thank you for your answer and @paulgarrett for his comment. Based on your suggestions, I took a look at that tag and came across the book Berkeley Problems in Mathematics, which according to the book description, is a collection of problems to help students review undergraduate mathematics in preparation for preliminary exams. This seems to be exactly what I need. I'll try doing a few problems from it everyday as I also study the more advanced material.

@CBBAM I get a bit of a sense from your comment that you're attempting to "skip" undergraduate-level material. An undergraduate level of understanding can't simply be rushed past, and you should make sure to work through dedicated undergrad textbooks in a subject first. You can't do an end run on mathematics this way. Your problem is a symptom of this strategy. You do not lack knowledge per se, but the aforementioned mathematical maturity. Cramming with that Berkley book is to continue with the same flawed methodology. I will gently suggest that you have not yet internalized Kimball's answer.

@Jerome Thank you for your comment. I agree with your assessment that I do not have the mathematical maturity I need to tackle tough problems and this is what I would like to develop. For more on my background, I actually have done my undergraduate in mathematics but it wasn't a great program and left me with a very shallow foundation. This is why I only truly learned things such as real analysis and linear algebra while self-studying more advanced topics.

@Jerome So far I have only gone through the first 10 problems of the Berkeley book and I have been able to do about 7 of them without too much trouble. Should I instead go through an undergraduate textbook such as Rudin and treat it as if I've never seen the subject before? Would that be better than directly tackling problems from the Berkeley book?


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Retaining study participants in a longitudinal research study
Which methods can be followed to retain participants in a longitudinal research study?
We tried to retain participants by sending reminder messages, and also a bonus at the second time point, but none of these two methods have worked so far. Only half of the participants came back to take part at the second time point. It hampers the counterbalancing of different variables. Would you please share your experiences to retain participants?

This would be more relevant for https://psychology.stackexchange.com/ -- you are more likely to get useful answers over there. That being said, retention of participants in longitudinal study is difficult. What do you mean by bonus at the second time -- do you mean monetary reward or something else?


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Waiting time for editor's decision for an article with status "Reviews Completed" for 4 months?
The academic journal paper I submitted to a Q1 Springer journal has been in the position of "Review Completed" since February 6, 2023, and is still in that status as of today, June 21, 2023. When should I expect to hear back from the editor?  If it is possible for me to write to the editor, please provide me with a template.

How to write the letter to editor? Sample letter Plz

keep it short and to the point.

Many journals provide publication metrics that can give you an idea of the average timeline. It's really not possible to know exactly when you'll hear back though. Your paper may be just sitting on an editors desk with a pile of other work. Or the submission portal was incorrectly updated and it is still being reviewed. Maybe they are looking for an additional reviewer and never changed the status. Who knows.
In any case, just email the editor and ask about the status of the paper. No template needed.


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Scopus reports random citations about my paper: how to correct
Long story short. I had a paper with missing citations in scopus. I asked to include them (3 citations) and they made a mess linking my paper to totally unrelated papers. Now my paper appear to be cited by nearly 500 papers, but it should only have about 3 citations.
This happened in February 2022. Over this time I opened dozens of support ticket, which are simply ignored, and chatted many times with support guys every time saying "we are working on it...".
[Question]
Since I find totally crazy 15 months to solve such an issue.. what do you suggest me to do?
[Issue]
Unfortunately scopus is used here in Italy as a reference for the h-index in public competitions, so this could a very severe issue for me.
This of course pose questions about the reputation of scopus!

Scopus is commercial entity selling a crappy product and someone in power in Italy is using this crappy product. The situation sucks but there is not much we can advise here apart from contacting Scopus. Long-term it might be possible to lobby legislators that the product must not be used in government funding because it's too unreliable...


text:
Job sites for finding postdoc and other academic positions in Germany or other EU countries (aside from Euraxess or academic positions)
I'm trying to find job sites specific to European countries like Germany, Spain etc. I'm aware that some of these jobs are posted on Euraxess or academic positions, or even regular job sites like LinekdIn, Indeed or Glassdoor, although I'd not characterize the last three as good resources for finding academic jobs. For France, I'm aware of the following sites:
GDR Kiosque: http://www.gdr-isis.fr/kiosque.html, https://gdr-mia.math.cnrs.fr/(2) ML Google groups: (1) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!categories/ml-news/academic-position, (2) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!categories/ml-news/postdoctoral-position
(3) https://scholarshipdb.net/ ,      https://academicpositions.com/  c) Operations postes:
http://postes.smai.emath.fr/current/index.php
d) Jobs in epidemiology, pathogen ecology etc.
https://iddjobs.org/
e) CNRS postdocs: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/, https://carrieres.cnrs.fr/en/employment-opportunities https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR5525-ELSGEN-011/Default.aspxhttps://emploi.cnrs.fr/RechercheAvancee.aspx
You'll notice that most of these sites apply to France only, not other countries. Now I'm looking for postdocs and tenure tracks in different EU coutries, but I'm unsure what are some good sites where I can find these opportunities - it seems they're published on the individual lab/university sites.
P.S. My area of research is geometric statistics, applied math, mathematical image analysis etc if that's relevant.
Any help or resources would be greatly appreciated!


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Is it fair for my PI to ask me to do administrative work like submitting reports for grants?
If this occurs, is this normal? It seems like work necessary for an administrator. Moreover, there is nothing to learn from doing so. It just seems like a lot of work towards something that is not a phd-student/postdoc's job.
The work on grants are slightly related to with the work I am involved in, but not directly. For example, requesting to write reports closing out existing grants.
Just curious on community thoughts here.

"Moreover, there is nothing to learn from doing so." You might be surprised...

Unfortunately, you'll likely share my unhappiness with how much administrative paper-shuffling, reports, and standing-at-a-copier are involved in being a professor.

I think this question needs more context: how much? are you involved in the projects? Does he give you feedback? etc

@ajl123 you might be surprised at how much of a working academic's day is "just administrative work" :-/ The pertinent question here, I think, is whether you are being asked to help out with the paperwork of a project you are involved with - or whether it's nothing to do with you and you are just being used as cheap labour.

Completely fair and normal. Be a good team player, and people will like having you on their team.

It's usually down to tradition..which varies from place to place, but if professors suffered and survived the same treatment to gain tenure, they will likely see it as a fair thing. Also, you may not be in a position to expect "fairness" from a professor until you become one yourself.

"It is part of the business." "It commonly happens." "You will get experience". But you asked if it was fair. So, although many supervisors and principle investigators here are saying yes it is fair, I would say it really depends...
Unfortunately, the priorities of the supervisor do not necessarily intersect or coincide with your interests or priorities. The more important question is: Should such administrative work have your priority at this moment?

How will it affect you planning, other tasks, and responsibilities?

Did the supervisor tell you in advance that this was going to be part
of the job?

Are you pursuing to the goal of staying in academia and
writing grants later?

Do you want to stay longer in that research
group, do they even offer you to stay longer?

Will you be involved in
a feedback loop of the proposal to learn, or are you just used as a
workhorse?

On the other hand, what would be the consequences of saying no? (if it is even possible to say no)

Yes you will learn from writing a grant proposal, but it also takes time and energy. It would be rational to allocate your limited resources wisely. And for that, you need to consider your particular situation and the possible consequences, the choices, and priorities you have.
Because gaining experience in writing grant proposals for others will not necessarily be a wise choice if you are at the end of a temporary contract trying to finish your PhD or project. I have seen people in the final phase of their PhD thesis writing, who were going to be ditched, from further funding, still getting additional teaching and research assignments in their last months without getting tangible perspectives on an extension. Others got so many additional duties that they voluntary prefered to finish their PhD on social/unemployment funding, or during the evenings and weekends during a new job, because it would give them more time to do so than in their academic job. Some finished successfully, but a considerable fraction did not submit and did not obtain their PhD. Some had to take strategic holidays during the last months of their university contract, just to get enough time to finish their thesis, some were even not allowed to take their holidays. These experiences at horror supervisors were hopefully exceptional from a global perspective, but not from a local perspective. Unfortunately, these things do happen. Is it professional abuse, or is it normal, or both?
Saying no to such additional tasks is a difficult topic to speak about. Because it is very common that supervisors and principle investigators are asking for extra work, without offering corresponding extensions, or additional resources. Maybe the supervisors were once treated the same, maybe they got used to treating others like that. And hey they are your supervisor, at least in Germany they have a big finger deciding in when you can submit and the grading of the thesis, if you get another extension, and possibly they are paying you now. So how much freedom do you really have to say no? Are the consequences of saying no worse, than the work that you could avoid by saying no? If it is unjust, To who in the organization, could you report the situation, ask for counsel, or escalate the situation, without the risk of unfavorable consequences?
Maybe sometimes saying no at work, becomes dangerously similar as saying no in another MeToo type of situations, in which it is often about the power balance and distribution. One of the issues is that in many European universities there is no feedback mechanism or leverage to deal with such "gray area" behavior of Professors.
As in many cases the supervisors (or other people with authority) that give their 'subordinates' the true freedom and possibility to say 'no', are relatively rare. Often the people and good supervisors, who do give the possibility to say no, are also the ones to which saying yes will be a great experience. In the other case, if you have no real choice you probably also have to say yes anyway.

I don't care for this answer. A PhD is an education, and that includes things one may not be excited to do but has to learn. Surely by writing grants and reports you also learn things that are transferable to other tasks. In fact, that's what I hear most consistently from my former PhD students: That they appreciate learning more from me than just what was necessary to defend a PhD thesis.

@WolfgangBangerth I hope your future students will read your "i don't care" comment here. I agree that A PhD is education, but why should education imply unconditional submission? It's well known that Professor jobs not only attract clever but also sometimes autocratic and dictatorial type of persons. Tasks are not reasonable by definition or without conditions, in particular under the given power dynamics. Maybe i emphasized the negative too much. Fortunately, there are also many supervisors that follow the golden rule: and supervise in a way how they would like to be supervised.

I didn't say that they should be rote jobs that have no connection to the grant they are paid for. But I do let them read and comment on various drafts of papers by others in my research group, as well as various drafts of grant proposals along with annual reports. I think that seeing the process by which they are constructed is useful for their education. As for reporting requirements for the grants they are paid from: Someone's got to do the work -- so let's do it together. I think your "unconditional submission" and "dictatorial" characterizations have nothing to do with my approach.

Separately, I have always been vocal that I have a great deal of gratitude towards my mentors, in part because they have always involved me in these sorts of activities. There is a difference between "doing science" and "being a scientist". I have been fortunate that they taught me both of these.

Just so I can relate. Are we saying must these tasks be forced, No. Should they be embraced, Yes.

If the shoe does not fit don't wear it. also the winners of a Rat-race usually do not consider it a Rat-race. Education means effort, and yes also going beyond one's comfort zone, and also doing things one does not like, but voluntary. Between academic education and academic exploitation, there is a large grey area, and currently, it is not that clear where the boundary is. Maybe this is a good topic for a follow-up question.

As a PI I ask students/postdocs to draft grant reports for projects that they are working on. Especially if they are the ones leading the project! And then I give them feedback on the draft, so they can learn how to fill out these reports once they have their own group.

If you're paid from a grant, it is reasonable to expect you to also work on the less-glamorous side of grant management -- such as writing reports and collecting data about the work you did. That's just part of it. This is no different than the dentist filling in some paperwork about what they did for the records after seeing a patient; or a technician making notes about what they fixed when they came out to look at your broken airconditioner.
And, as @jerlich notes, this is also a learning and teaching opportunity.

I wish I had had the opportunity to learn this properly by having one of my former PIs train me in this particular aspect of the job.
I do want to add that in my view there is a difference who to ask. A PhD student who has no interest in continuing in academia? Maybe not the best use of that person's time (and maybe not the best quality of the grant report given that this person may be less invested in doing this to the nines). But a postdoc? Definitely OK in terms of seniority and definitely worthwhile if this person wants to continue in academia. All this being said, I do think it also depends on the overall vibe that the PI gives of: Are they making this feel like "you do my admin" or like "this comes with the job and this a great learning experience and let me coach you in how to do this".

Great answer: "you do my admin" really feels the worst. It is so disrespectful and counterproductive to use PhDs or PostDocs for doing admin work. I've experienced that myself, I can only confirm with what ajl123 wrote: There is really nothing at all to learn from, nothing! You can't put in your CV and, much worse, people begin to label you as a low performer. I know what I'm talking about. However, drafting a grant proposal under the mentorship of your supervisor can be a great experience that I'd have loved to have during my PhD. My core take-away: Never be altruistic, nowhere!

@Mario Never be altruistic nowhere is not exactly the vibe or take away I was going for as I think we need more not less of that in academia, but that's another story.

I know what you mean. My statement was a little too strong. I've service-worked a lot for others in my life. And if there is one take-away or one thing that I've learned in all these years: There is no lasting reward for helping others in a business world. This is particularly true for academia. I know this sounds quite negative, but I don't think it helps us if we collectively ignore the dark side of the academic realm. I'm planning to write a book about this sometime. But this discussion is perhaps going off-topic now. Thx for a good question and good answers.

I mean, if the student is paid from the grant, it is more like “you do your own admin,” right?

Even if you are not directly funded from the grant do not refuse. Your work will help both you and your PI. You should also ask him to let you help with the grant preparation. You'll make a positive impression and you will learn how to do the disgusting part of the PI's work from someone who is already reasonably good at it. Learning grant writing alone, by trial and error can cost you a lot of time and rob you of many early career opportunities.
Getting a research grant is a lot harder than it used to be 10 or 20 years ago. Governments are trying to move money in critical areas, so the funding for science is a lot less than it used to be. In my country, the chance of getting a grant is less than 5%, and if you account for corruption and geniuses (real ones) is less than 1%.
The reason I think you should get involved with grant writing and the silly paperwork attached to it, is that you'll have the training and understanding how grants work before most of the PhDs in your cohort. When you and 10 others will apply for the same chunk of money, your grant writing/managing experience is likely to make the difference.

If you want to make a career as a researcher you will need to attract funding. Your PI is giving you an opportunity to learn the necessary skills.

It really depends on the specifics of the "administrative work" you are being asked to do. For example and as others have mentioned, it would be reasonable for your PI to ask you to write a report about a grant that benefits you, even if the benefits are not direct. Examples of indirect benefits are access to materials and equipment product of said grant. On your question, you mention having to log in to the grant admin website and enter information. That's a reasonable request. Making photocopies or scanning documents are just part of the administrative BS we all have to do every day.
I once worked under a PI whose lab tech quit, and he refused to hire a replacement. So he decided to make me an unpaid technician, on top of my graduate student duties: I had to take training on using the university purchasing system and manage all procurement of materials for everybody in the lab, including other postdocs and other grad students. I then was asked to oversee the lab, manage equipment use and repairs, etc. i.e. everything that the old tech used to do. At first I thought of it as unfair, but then I realized that it came with a lot of benefits. With the extra work came the power to order whatever materials I needed for my research. Because he allowed me the freedom to experiment (and spend) I developed alternate protocols that saved the lab tens of thousands of dollars. And I got a lot of research and publications out.
I also once once worked with a PI that was down right exploitative of anybody who depended on him for anything. His grad students had to do everything for him: teach his lectures, write his exams, grade everything, even post final grades for his classes. He had grad students managing his lab and he never walked by the lab. At one point he even moved overseas for an extended period and left his students to fend for themselves. He took on an MS student on a student visa and made her the de facto secretary, and provided zero training until she quit. It was all justified under the "this is a good learning experience for you" excuse, but it was never.
I hope to have made the point that to the question "is it common to have grad student to admin work?", the answer is really that it depends. Having direct access to how the grant reporting system works has a lot of upsides. Unless you are only being asked to fetch coffee and make photocopies, as unpaid exploitation of grad students go, this is mild at worst and at best a good training opportunity.

I helped my professor in a project, and learnt how it is different from a paper publication. It was a great learning experience although he didn't appoint me in his lab or any in the University. But I got a better position where I was also asked to write the lab project.


text:
I’m an international PhD student getting kicked out from my research group. I really need a PhD. Any advice?
I'm at the end of my second year in a top chemistry Ph.D. program in the US. Unfortunately, I've been struggling a lot with depression and low energy: I'm having a lot of personal issues, no support system, barely any family/friends, my home country is at war, and to make things even worse, I picked a terrible project. I’ve even started seeing a therapist even though normally, I’d never do something like that. I feel like my mental struggles contributed to this situation…
Anyway, I've been working on this project for 2 years, and almost all the results I have are either negative or not quite what we wanted. Frankly, I think my PI is chasing research goals that are not feasible and that this project is a fool’s errand, which is basically what my candidacy committee said too.
My PI talked with me recently and said that he doesn't see a path forward and that not all people are meant to get a Ph.D. He only casually talked to me about the things he wanted me to improve before, but he never communicated it was THAT serious. I was trying to fix the things he wanted me to fix, but with everything that was going on, it was problematic. It came as a shock also because he said that he knows this project is hard, that I’d been working hard, and that my research progress is fine. The issue is not my research progress though, but rather a combination of other things - both minor and not. For instance, I spilled a liter of solvent once, and I forgot about a one-on-one meeting once or twice over these 2 years (because I was focused on the labwork or writing something up). But his major concern apparently, is how I prepared my research prospectus (for the qualifying exam) and some of the internal research presentations (each member of his research group prepares a research presentation every couple months). With how I’ve been feeling and with how the project is going, I didn’t have enough energy to streamline them. So my last internal presentation for the group meeting was pretty bad (although in my mind, 0 results is 0 results regardless of how nice my presentation looks). And my prospectus…Well, I had to redo it. This is my 2nd time fixing it. I had to retake my candidacy exam and got a conditional pass after the second attempt. The committee didn’t like the project, and here, I 100% agree with them. They said I have a stellar GPA and told me I’m super smart and all, but none of that matters here since this doesn’t help. I should submit the prospectus (proposal basically) this week, but I’m kicked out of the group regardless.
What now? If they do pass me, I can try to find another lab at this university, but should I? And if I have to apply to another Ph.D. program, it creates visa issues: I can’t go back to my home country while applying. Any advice?
I apologize if this is incoherent: I’m still kinda shell-shocked.

Sorry about your situation. Came here to say that seeing a therapist is completely normal! You did the right thing by getting help. Your mental health is at least as important as your physical health.

@derptank thanks. I’m just not sure about what to do…

@Xxx I had to go through some of these difficulties during my first postdoc. It was tough. I very much hope that you manage to stay at your present university, because I understand that an attempt to switch schools may cause visa issues. As a last resort, are you considering PhD studies in a different country? (Say, if you are in the US, can't you apply for PhD studies in Canada -- and wait for a Canadian visa while still working in the US?)

@Xxx If, hypothetically, a good opportunity emerges, would you consider changing fields? (To, say, nanomaterials for biomedical purposes.)

I'm sorry to hear that you're going through such a challenging time. Dealing with depression, personal issues, and a difficult project can harm your overall well-being and academic performance.
Here are some suggestions to help you navigate your next steps:

Openly communicate with your PI: Have a sincere conversation with your PI about your situation, including your mental health struggles and the feedback you received from the candidacy committee. Discuss the possibility of continuing in the lab or potential alternative projects or arrangements.

Explore other options within the university: If continuing in your current lab is not feasible, consider exploring other research groups within your university.  Reach out to other PIs and inquire about available positions to continue your PhD within the same institution.

Consider transferring to another institution: If you feel that starting fresh in a different institution or different PhD program would make sense, you can explore the possibility of transferring to another institution. (about the visa implications seek guidance from your university's international student office.)

Consider transferring to a masters program in the same institution if it is possible. Some universities allow this. After completeing the MS, you can get an MS and look for a new position either in acdemia or industry.

Reflect on your goals and priorities: Think about your long-term goals and aspirations. See if completing a PhD is still aligned with your interests and career plans. This self-reflection will help you make informed decisions about your future path.

Finally, note that nearly half of PhD students do not graduate, see for example these links: link1, link2, and link3. So, it is not end of the world to drop out of a PhD program, and your health and well-being is much more important than getting a PhD degree.

Thank you! I actually did get an MS from this university on my way to a PhD. So at least, I have that. But I want to do research, and options for doing it without a PhD are limited.

+1 for your first sentance. This is rarely seen in this forum.

A quick chipping in @Bob excellent suggestions

although in my mind, 0 results is 0 results regardless of how nice my presentation looks

Even when (anticipated) results are zero/negative, being able to and actually explaining the result (from an outcome perspective) is important/insightful in research.
Perhaps, this might not apply to some field/discipline.
Wishing you the best on your rediscovering process. #KeepCalmAndReengage

Yeah, I know I could still talk about about the negative results. And I did. I'm just saying the project overall is problematic, which contributed to my predicament. Thank you.

international PhD student here.
I was in a similar situation (top tier university, bogus R01, and no equipment/account frozen for months because the PI of the grant moved twice in 2 years). I was working odd projects on the side just to maintain my salary and did not have the time to prepare for the qualifying exam. I wanted out so badly, that I failed the second attempt on purpose.
Long story short: I made sure I had enough credits to get a Master, and immediately applied for OPT. Worked for 1 year and then started a PhD in a different institution.
Then the pandemic hit, my new PI took the chance to get a promotion in a different institution, and I was stuck again, forced to TA all-year round just to have a salary. As international, we can't really apply for fellowships, so I started writing grants for a professor that agreed to put his name on them. I wrote 5 grants in 18 months, submitted 3, and won 2.
The situation was über-stressful because I found problems in my new immigration docs that I could not fix on my own, and I was working all the time for a meager stipend, giving my ideas to other people. My wife decided I was a failure and filed for divorce.
However, now that I do the research that I care about, passing the qualifying exam was no sweat. And I used my experience to get a grant writing position. This is way easier that being a researcher, I can do it from home, and the hourly income is about 3.5x what I get as a PhD. And I will likely maintain the position after graduation.
All to say: put in prospective, leaving the first PhD program was a good thing. Don't put up with a toxic environment, especially if it is for a project you don't believe in.
And having a support system is overrated, you never know how friends and family react under stress. Some of them, despite being pleasant people in good times, will gladly kick you while you are on the ground.

To be honest, PhD (committees) have multiple roles. One of them is to grade your PhD, when it is done, but on more and more university they are taking even more proactive role to advise the students and this way protect them if their supervisor is incompetent. The committee, as I understand, clearly said that the research path is not viable and your supervisor at least should heed this warning and assign you to something else. My advice is to leave the lab and go somewhere else within the rights your visa gives you, because that is extremely bad supervision, if he encouraged you to follow the research goals that are widely considered (obviously by the committee) to be unrealistic. You have no future in that lab and.

Sorry to hear about your situation but it's not uncommon. My suggestion is that you should consider moving to another phd program preferably in another institution rather than in the same university. You might also want to consider moving to another perhaps related project. Good luck!

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, a lot of professors are horrible bosses. The combination of high expectations, little accountability, and no real business or management training can make a deadly combination. I would suggest a fresh start at an R2 they are often a little more laid back. If I was doing it over again I would have left in a similar fashion. You still get your masters degree. I think the visa is a smaller issue than you think. Find a university and a professor that aligns with your interests and talk to them. The university may be able to FastTrack the visa. Secondly, use the opportunity to talk to the professors students and ask how many alumni from their group still communicate. Asking an alumni about their advisor you will get the most truthful answers. I think a fresh start would do you well and put this behind you even though it feels like you might have wasted two years it is better than four and find an advisor that will pour into you.