Removal of problematic required and recommended schema attributes

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and required from the schema.  None of the released HED 3 schemas or library schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in the event-level tag string?  Neither the Python nor the JavaScript validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same issues.  This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity. The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96 @smakeig @tpatpa @IanCa @happy5214

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/#  ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'?   (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
@smakeig
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
@tpatpa
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
@IanCa
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$
@happy5214
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.)  Unfortunately that isn't
the definition we are using here.
However,  once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed.  It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
the schema currently.  Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
anything.  We need to discuss.
Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible.  A tag cannot have a # child and other children.

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user.  It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events).  Right now it is used to expand events of finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset.  Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid.  The design matrix and
condition variable vectors use it this way.  We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague.  I'll propose something clearer.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
BIDS is silent.

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female.  I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one.  So far there is no
sign of that.

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731,
or unsubscribe
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

See > comments below.  -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' -  can't this be the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex'  refers to body type and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown', etc. ?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If
you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No.   # refers to a value.    You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC    here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC  (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a value.
is a value and not treated as is-a.  It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown', etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If
you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$
,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501,
or unsubscribe
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

... or   'Event/EID/#'   (for orthogonality
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

Oh, sorry  (proofreading...)  I meant 'Event/ID/#'   !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
value.
is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It
can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are
in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be
the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss
the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids
and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type
and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put
the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED

If

you

put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is
no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yv-a3l0J$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiKPsRz_$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$

,
or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yvbSjpxH$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yokPbSav$
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217042938__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yudJF54f$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFXQDANMKSDRGOF5A3TVZPRIDANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiszOPrF$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

Sorry,
Event is used.  ID is not an Event.  We have an ID and Label tags under
Informational-property
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
value.
is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block
of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It
can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that
are
in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be
the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by
the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish
it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss
the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
fluids
and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type
and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put
the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is
no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference
in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to
me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED

If

you

put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that
it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is
no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the
HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of
the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yv-a3l0J$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiKPsRz_$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$

,
or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yvbSjpxH$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yokPbSav$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217042938__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yudJF54f$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFXQDANMKSDRGOF5A3TVZPRIDANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiszOPrF$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1217100905,
or unsubscribe
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXMMDQ53DCF4T3TEBLVZPXO7ANCNFSM56VWS77Q
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

Then '(Event, ID/#)'  ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Sorry,
Event is used. ID is not an Event. We have an ID and Label tags under
Informational-property
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
value.
is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The
block
of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed.
It
can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that
are
in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this
be
the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by
the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to
distinguish
it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have
to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to
discuss
the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but
the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
fluids
and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body
type
and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would
put
the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there
is
no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which
for
some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add
'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the
difference
in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to
me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas
or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in
HED

If

you

put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that
it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there
is
no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to
be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the
HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of
the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context
node,
which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be
extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUnzMTA6zT$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yv-a3l0J$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn63vvJ33$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiKPsRz_$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message
ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$

,
or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn5-6qzOI$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yvbSjpxH$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn_wyXNIo$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yokPbSav$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217042938__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yudJF54f$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFXQDANMKSDRGOF5A3TVZPRIDANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiszOPrF$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1217100905>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217100905*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUnzr3ZOrB$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXMMDQ53DCF4T3TEBLVZPXO7ANCNFSM56VWS77Q>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXMMDQ53DCF4T3TEBLVZPXO7ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn9RDV8Jl$
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217126406__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn1XZYaN8$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTB3IKHLX6BGFJCZW3VZP2XHANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn_Nk7958$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no sign of that.

BIDS lists options for Male, Female, Other or n/a (not recorded) in the participants.tsv:
https://bids-specification.readthedocs.io/en/stable/03-modality-agnostic-files.html#participants-file

Yes
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:30 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Then '(Event, ID/#)' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Sorry,
Event is used. ID is not an Event. We have an ID and Label tags under
Informational-property
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
value.
is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The
block
of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately
that
isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed.
It
can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits
that
are
in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care
in
adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this
be
the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in
by
the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to
distinguish
it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events
of
finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have
to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to
discuss
the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but
the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
fluids
and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body
type
and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would
put
the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there
is
no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which
for
some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add
'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the
difference
in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***>
wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear
to
me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3
schemas
or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in
HED

If

you

put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean
that
it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because
there
is
no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same
way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off
to
be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in
the
HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some
of
the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context
node,
which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be
extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema
attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special
singletons
such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
something that is not currently used and will cause
unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the
same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message
ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural
Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUnzMTA6zT$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yv-a3l0J$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn63vvJ33$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiKPsRz_$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message
ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$

,
or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn5-6qzOI$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yvbSjpxH$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn_wyXNIo$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yokPbSav$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217042938__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yudJF54f$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFXQDANMKSDRGOF5A3TVZPRIDANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiszOPrF$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1217100905

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217100905*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUnzr3ZOrB$
,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXMMDQ53DCF4T3TEBLVZPXO7ANCNFSM56VWS77Q

<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXMMDQ53DCF4T3TEBLVZPXO7ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn9RDV8Jl$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217126406__;Iw!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn1XZYaN8$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTB3IKHLX6BGFJCZW3VZP2XHANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HM01fes49SiMwDr0omMjst08Rcn2zeVpI0r4JTArWM6efoPnnRsZfEN5yXunceGRFARjIOO71uI7RfdUn_Nk7958$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1217128564,
or unsubscribe
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOXHROE2LMOF2W2X2SLVZP27PANCNFSM56VWS77Q
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

Oh, sorry  (proofreading...)  I meant 'Event/ID/#'   !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a value.
is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab @.***> wrote:

Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...

However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are
in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
adding
anything. We need to discuss.

I understand this.

Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.

So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.

I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...

Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.

Yes, good.

Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids
and
BIDS is silent.

I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...

Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.

Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
?

Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig @.***> wrote:

Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig @.***> wrote:

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended
and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3.
If
you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
must
be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
which
is
a special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such
as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$

@smakeig
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$

@tpatpa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$

@IanCa
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$

@happy5214
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216922731
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yv-a3l0J$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216922731*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjEKxFLRk$

,

or unsubscribe
<

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiKPsRz_$

<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOVJV2NXIETNI6FRM4DVZPD73ANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjI6fQLvV$

.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216941602__;Iw!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjL8s7IC7$

,
or unsubscribe
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFTFUE3YHH2BBP6XG7TVZPF6ZANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!C9kRu8bCb4HPw5iMT7h9G4sL9Z-53E9DXZIIg-JusnS9ko0beI-9R8tmaHAopTm6o9xLiIL6LCfknFrpjKARZih8$

.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<
https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450#issuecomment-1216958501>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1216958501*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yvbSjpxH$
,
or unsubscribe
<
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOQ2TW3H4L7KB5Q3DF3VZPH6PANCNFSM56VWS77Q*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yokPbSav$
.
You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID:
@.***>

—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450*issuecomment-1217042938__;Iw!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yudJF54f$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFXQDANMKSDRGOF5A3TVZPRIDANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!CBUKggKYHmiXxoNt43NBbEEVaq_omIq0r7ekZK2vgV6tO3zT9H5eAuIG7uHDehX5rkc1wMVZfswgfIP3yiszOPrF$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/#  ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'?   (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab @.***> wrote:

We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is a
special case and is an end node at the current time.
Proposal:

We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.

The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
@smakeig
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
@tpatpa
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
@IanCa
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$
@happy5214
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$,
or unsubscribe
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFT4SQZKYWY4IWQGXXLVZOFBTANCNFSM56VWS77Q__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGa7D3RAr$
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
@.***>

--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott

Sorry @smakeig
The replies to these questions are late, but I thought I should put them in for the record and some of them are being resolved with the release of 8.3.0.

How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?

Event-context is a reserved tag -- it is never put in by users. Rather, when tools unfold an event process, they create an Event-context group with the ongoing event context in it.

What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?

Time-block is usually used to indicate a block of time during which something is noted --- say for an artifact.

Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??

The Event and its children are essential to classify the type of events during search (i.e., distinguishing between sensory events and agent actions.  The # would be used for the label of the event.  This would be done in HED as (Sensory-event, Label/xxx) for example.

What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)

This is clarified in the new description in HED 8.3.0. See hed-schemas PR#156

Why does 'Gender' have no children? Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?

Because of orthogonality: (Sex, Unknown) is the way to do it.  The Unknown tag is added in Schema version 8.3.0.

I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library schemas use them.

These are being removed in HED schema version 8.3.0 hed-schemas PR#156


Why conversion from DoubleArray with nulls to numpy needs to copy?

Hello!
There is this requirement that for to_numpy() conversion to be zero-copy arrow array mustn't contain any nulls. If I understand correctly Arrow doesn't specify values in slots that are marked as null in the corresponding bitmap.
Is it possible to write numpy-specific nan values in places that are null in arrow buffer so that upon conversion there is no copying required?

This came up in ARROW-3263 for R. If you'd like you can open a corresponding Python issue. On the face of it, this seems rather difficult to me to do safely


Zygote restarting while OP active

Describe the bug

How to reproduce or log data
So for the past couple months, after a couple days of uptime, the comma two offroad UI will glitch out. The buttons respond with highlighting upon touch, but everything else stops working.
Starting the car correctly starts openpilot, and all works just fine, except the sound stops working completely (no disengage/engage sound).
A reboot solves the issue, until it eventually occurs again a few days later. Factory resets/reflashing have not fixed the issue, and I don't believe it to be a hardware fault.

This time, I left the comma two to bask in its glitched state and this ended up happening; the comma two had the spinning logo, while ALSO still driving my car. In the video below, I nudge the wheel to cause on purpose ping pong to prove it was still steering.
Expected behavior
The above behaviour should not occur. The UI should remain intact, and the device shouldn't "restart" while openpilot is active.
Device/Version information (please complete the following information):

Device: comma two
Dongle ID: 4d70bc5e608678be
Route: 4d70bc5e608678be|2020-12-13--12-52-39--5 (When I can reproduce again, I will get logs... this route isn't helpful (adeeb looked at it).
Timestamp: N/A
Version: master based fork (basic additions like tuning), was rebased onto 1ea307a2996f16104501bf1d497e202326000dc1
Car make/model: 2018 Subaru Impreza

Additional context
Videos of unresponsive UI / restart while driving.
Unresponsive UI
comma two restarting during drive (still engaged -  WARNING: Colourful language)

Seeing the same thing here, this seems to be different from #19874 as in this situation, the drive continues (openpilot still engages, steers, and sends acceleration commands) but the UI crashes and the boot logo shows.

I have a theory on what causes this, and I believe this should be better in 0.8.3+. Have you guys since this since then?

Can confirm that I haven't encountered this for a while now.

@cydia2020 did you experience it somewhat consistently previously?

@cydia2020 did you experience it somewhat consistently previously?

No, only experienced it twice.

I consistently experienced it, and haven't for quite a while.

I believe these crashes were due to SystemServer's processes getting killed to free up memory. This likely affected users who left their devices in their cars and drove just often enough to not hit the thresholds in thermald to shut off the device. A significant leak was fixed in 0.8.3, so once we have better logging around this (#20978), I'll close the issue.

I think this class of zygote crashes is fixed. Tracking a new class of zygote crashes in #21539.


Boston and Chicago do not display on map

Boston and Chicago are present in the data but for some reason do not display on the map.

Please disregard.