<p>Without having a picture of your setup and environment, we can only assume and speculate.</p>
<p>I guess, you will always have significant reflections when bat is flying over the flat water surface.</p>
<p>To know where the reflection is coming from, I would first measure the time delay, convert it to range difference, and then try to resolve geometry.</p>
<p>IMO, having reflections, makes tracking not only easier, but enables it by multipath analysis. Especially, if you use your 4 microphone array to estimate the direction of the arrivals.</p>
<p>I guess further, the reflected call overlaps the direct call, making direction estimation somewhat complicated. More information on microphone separation and bat signal would be needed or helpful.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-08T05:06:59.463Z
Am on the road, and can't access field photos. Hope my quick sketch helps :).
Thejasvi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-08T04:57:53.943Z
2022-07-08T04:57:53.943Z
WMXZ
<p>This happens a lot, and @WMXZ and @chloe have covered the major solutions and ideas to handle the problem.</p>
<p>The echoes do come from the ground/water-surface. What I've found helps is to raise the height of the tripod (say at least &gt;= 1 m). The time delay between the direct call and reflection increase and you can then localise calls due to the temporal separation.</p>
<p>On a related note (and an untested idea), if you can't go any higher - may even get the array as low as possible? Here, the time delay between the direct and indirect would reduce and end up showing as only 'one' call? Not sure how much it would affect localisation though!</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-08T10:24:43.180Z
In some engineering applications it is common to use microphones positioned directly on the ground to avoid significant ground/surface reflections. Note however that the acoustic impedance of the soil might absorb some high frequencies, and this will be highly location- and weather-dependent, so it might not be the best option here; hence the mics are often positioned on a metal plate. An example can be found at https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/features/NASA-Tests-Microphone-Array-for-X-59.html
fabio_hirono
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-08T09:44:06.247Z
2022-07-08T14:00:41.077Z
2022-07-08T14:00:41.077Z
Thejasvi
<p>Even while in open space, the lake that your bat is flying over is a great reflector, and so you <em>should</em> anticipate recording click-echo pairs. If this is frustrating your automated tracking algorithm, adjust your detector so that it has a blanking time (following each detected click) that is longer than your longest interval between click and echo. (This can remove echoes from being detected in the first place). Good luck</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-08T08:27:36.250Z
2022-07-08T08:27:36.250Z
Chloe
<p>I have a 4 mic array on a tripod that I use to record Pipistrelles flying about 3-5 m above the ground over a lake.</p>
<p>My calls are always 'double' for some reason (two calls, the direct path and some reflection) - which makes acoustic tracking hard.</p>
<p>I'm actually recording in an open space, and don't expect any reflections. Can someone please tell me why I'm getting this 'double call' type data, and what I can do about it?</p>
<p>Edit:</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/LxZgR.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/LxZgR.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a>
<em>Hand sketch of the 4 channel inverted T array on the tripod. The long line on the right of the array is the water surface.</em></p>
<p>Note: <em>this is a 're-enacted' question. Don't have the spectrograms at hand now, will try to find it in the coming days</em></p>

<echolocation><localisation><array><tracking>
Call reflections while recording bat calls with mic array
# Call reflections while recording bat calls with mic array

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-07-07)

I have a 4 mic array on a tripod that I use to record Pipistrelles flying about 3-5 m above the ground over a lake.

My calls are always 'double' for some reason (two calls, the direct path and some reflection) - which makes acoustic tracking hard.

I'm actually recording in an open space, and don't expect any reflections. Can someone please tell me why I'm getting this 'double call' type data, and what I can do about it?

Edit:

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/LxZgR.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/LxZgR.jpg)
*Hand sketch of the 4 channel inverted T array on the tripod. The long line on the right of the array is the water surface.*

Note: *this is a 're-enacted' question. Don't have the spectrograms at hand now, will try to find it in the coming days*

**Tags:** echolocation, localisation, array, tracking


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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2022-07-08. Score: 4 | Accepted answer

Even while in open space, the lake that your bat is flying over is a great reflector, and so you *should* anticipate recording click-echo pairs. If this is frustrating your automated tracking algorithm, adjust your detector so that it has a blanking time (following each detected click) that is longer than your longest interval between click and echo. (This can remove echoes from being detected in the first place). Good luck


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### Answer by username_1 on 2022-07-08. Score: 4

Without having a picture of your setup and environment, we can only assume and speculate.

I guess, you will always have significant reflections when bat is flying over the flat water surface.

To know where the reflection is coming from, I would first measure the time delay, convert it to range difference, and then try to resolve geometry.

IMO, having reflections, makes tracking not only easier, but enables it by multipath analysis. Especially, if you use your 4 microphone array to estimate the direction of the arrivals.

I guess further, the reflected call overlaps the direct call, making direction estimation somewhat complicated. More information on microphone separation and bat signal would be needed or helpful.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Am on the road, and can't access field photos. Hope my quick sketch helps :).  

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### Answer by username_0 on 2022-07-08. Score: 2

This happens a lot, and @username_1 and @username_3 have covered the major solutions and ideas to handle the problem.

The echoes do come from the ground/water-surface. What I've found helps is to raise the height of the tripod (say at least >= 1 m). The time delay between the direct call and reflection increase and you can then localise calls due to the temporal separation.

On a related note (and an untested idea), if you can't go any higher - may even get the array as low as possible? Here, the time delay between the direct and indirect would reduce and end up showing as only 'one' call? Not sure how much it would affect localisation though!

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: In some engineering applications it is common to use microphones positioned directly on the ground to avoid significant ground/surface reflections. Note however that the acoustic impedance of the soil might absorb some high frequencies, and this will be highly location- and weather-dependent, so it might not be the best option here; hence the mics are often positioned on a metal plate. An example can be found at https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/features/NASA-Tests-Microphone-Array-for-X-59.html  

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