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(UTC)


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4. I can't say anything about Khachatryan yet - I need to look at her abstract.


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Don't have a link to the electronic version?


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—Alexander Ustimenko 09:04, January 22, 2012


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(UTC)\


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I'm even embarrassed to tell you that you referred to it yourself.


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—Melirius 15:32, January 22, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yes, I searched the search engine for dissertation abstracts - but for some reason now the text of the abstract is not reflected there, only a link to a paid download.


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Most likely, I looked at the text of this abstract in the library.


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So you don't have an electronic version?


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—Alexander Ustimenko 06:31, January 25, 2012


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(UTC)


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—Melirius 12:45, January 25, 2012


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(UTC)


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Thanks!


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I looked at the list of publications - the last is a monograph that is in print.


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I do not know whether defense is allowed on the basis of a “monograph in press”, but these are claims against the Higher Attestation Commission, which approved the dissertation, and not against Khachatryan.


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In addition, it contains one deposited manuscript and 4 scientific conferences, the collections of works of which are probably published.


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Not enough?


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Well, this is a technical issue that is under the jurisdiction of the Higher Attestation


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I do not think that such a formal statistical approach to assessing sources is productive.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 07:36, January 26, 2012


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(UTC)


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What do you mean “Thanks!”??


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It turns out that Alexander Ustimenko ignored all the messages of Vajrapani, Q Valda and me and never went to paragraph 2.4.


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AK:537, where is the reference to this thought-pepton broth and its assessment AK??


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—Van Helsing 07:49, January 26, 2012


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(UTC)


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“Thank you” means for the electronic version of the abstract.


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As for clause 2.4.


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from AK:537.


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Here is a full quote related to Khachatryan's dissertation: The presence of separate academic sources that use such a teaching as a methodological basis also does not make this teaching in itself” scientific”, especially if the use of such a base in this field of knowledge is not widespread, or the scientific level of such sources seems objectively low.


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For example, having a dissertation “The problem of women and the family in the philosophy of living ethics”


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(website copy)


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is not a basis for entering information about the relevant ideas of the Living Ethics in the articles Woman or Family, since the weight of such a source among all sources engaged in the study related issues are close to zero.


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- the meaning is clear and does not coincide with your interpretation.


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The point is that in Nererikh's topics, for example, in the topics “Family” and “Woman”, on which there are hundreds and thousands of dissertations and other academic works that consider these issues from strictly scientific positions, the weight of Khachatryan's dissertation is close to zero.


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But in articles on Roerich's topics, on which there are only a few dozen academic works, Khachatryan's dissertation has some weight.


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However, the AK decision does not say about the latter, these are my logical conclusions from the general principles of Wikipedia rules.


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As it is not written in the decision of the AK and what you are trying to incarnate with them - as if I am quoting you: “the significance and prevalence of its


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(Khachatryan)


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considerations should be determined by secondary authoritative sources.”


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—Alexander Ustimenko 06:38, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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However, why not?


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I'm not talking about yours, but about my logical conclusions... Here, from the same point 2.4.


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in plain text: “The fact that there is a certain array of sources


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(for example, PhD theses) discussing esoteric religious or philosophical doctrine is not in itself a basis for the widespread use of works created within the framework of this teaching.


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In particular, it should be borne in mind that in modern academic research, such a teaching can be considered more as an object of research than based on them - such sources should to be used in articles about these teachings themselves...” —Alexander Ustimenko 07:00, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yes, these are questions to the Higher Attestation Commission, but also to the dissertant herself


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(Corresponding Member of MADENM — International Academy of Spiritual Unity of the Peoples of the World — Amalia Sarkisovna Khachatryan)


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too.


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Once again, publications according to the abstract:


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1. Khachatryan A.S.


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The spiritual purpose of peoples.


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011C newspaper “SVOBODA”, №14


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- Yerevan: 1994 - p.4.


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— newspaper.


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2. Khachatryan A.S.


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“Living Ethics” about the role of women in restoring balance began.


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//Public administration: historical aspects.


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- Moscow: ed.


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“University Humanitarian Lyceum”, 1997


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-s.


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— collection.


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3. Khachatryan A.S.


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Education and education of students in schools according to the methodology of the Living Ethics Teaching.


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//The manuscript was deposited with INION RAS No. 54014 - Moscow, 5.1 1.1998, 27 pages, 1.5 pp.


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— deposited manuscript


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(they usually write such garbage in them, which is a shame to publish).


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4. Khachatryan A.S.


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Culture through education.


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//Abstracts of the conference of educators from August 12-16.


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- Gorki Leninskiye.


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“Three keys” magazine - St. Petersburg: 1999 ,


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(in press).


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— conference abstracts.


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5. Khachatryan A.S.


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Humanity is on the threshold of the 21st century.


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//Magazine “Fiery World”.


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- Riga: 1999 ,


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(in press).


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— Roerich magazine.


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6. Khachatryan A.S.


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“The problem of women and family in the philosophy of the Living Ethics”.


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- Yerevan: 1998 ,


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(in press).


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The Reform Association of Armenia together with the Armenian National Assembly “Karedaran” decided to publish it in Yerevan in 1998.


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this monographic study.


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Sponsor of 000 Nefeline.


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— a search on the Internet leads to the following data:.


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Khachatryan, Amalia Sarkisovna.


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The problem of women and family in the philosophy of the Living Ethics []:


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(social. -philosophic. aspect)


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/Amalia Khachatryan.


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- Yerevan: Mkhitar Gosh, 1999


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- 156 p.: Il.


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, porter.


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; 20 cm. - Bibliography.


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: p. 150-156.


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(reg.)


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with annotation


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(hehehehe, my highlight):


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The book is the author's publication of Amalia Sarkisovna Khachatryan, Candidate of Philosophical Sciences, on the problems of women and the family, which were developed at Moscow State University named after M.


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MV


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Lomonosov Moscow State University in 1998.


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The problem of women and the family in the Teaching of the Living Ethics has not yet been the subject of special philosophical research and is being carried out in the form of independent work


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The ideological press that existed in the social sciences for a long time did not allow serious study of esoteric literature.


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Works by E.


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P.


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Blavatsky, all members of the Roerich family, A.I.


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Klizovsky and others.


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were excluded from the educational sphere and all references to them were abused and indiscriminately rejected.


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Theosophical problems were developed mainly by foreign researchers and theologians.


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The book is of interest to a wide range of readers.


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That is, the teaching of the Living Ethics is directly and honestly called esoteric and theosophical.


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“Good, good copy-paste!”


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Have the abstracts been published?


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I don't know, but I can't see it on the Internet.


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Besides, I don't know about mathematics, but in physics it's a shame to refer to them.


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I do not see the formal compliance of the dissertation with the criteria of the Higher Attestation Commission and the authority of


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—Melirius 15:09, January 26, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yes, the teaching of the Living Ethics has a continuity with theosophy and ancient esoteric teachings.


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I have never denied this, it is found in several philosophical sources.


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I do not insist on the great authority of this source either, but I am in favor of uniform criteria for assessing all sources, cited by me and my opponents.


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Read below what sources Vajrapani cites - the last one I disassembled just delighted me... Read quotes from it about the combination of esotericism and science in a single worldview.


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In principle, I agree with these thoughts, and I told you about this trend in philosophy and science above.


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And if you read the study of the problem in the abstract of this author


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(Ivanova)


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- you will see the rich history of the study of esotericism by modern philosophers.


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Where is Khachatryan before them... —Alexander Ustimenko 16:18, January 26, 2012


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(UTC)


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I'm sorry, but it doesn't say “has a continuity with theosophy and ancient esoteric teachings.”


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It actually says that GE is part of theosophy and esoteric teachings


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(Works by E.P. Blavatsky, all members of the Roerich family, A.I. Klizovsky, etc. — by enumeration).


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However, I am already familiar with your method of interpreting sources, so you don't have to answer.


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I still do not see any arguments about any authority of this affiliate source.


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—Melirius 22:15, January 26, 2012


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(UTC)


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Sorry, but it doesn't say “The Living Ethics is part of theosophy.”


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But this is a small defect in your method of interpreting sources.


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How is Khachatryan affiliated with the Roerich movement?


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—Alexander Ustimenko 06:09, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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Well, as for what it says, I recommend contacting an intermediary.


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I am 99.9% sure of the correctness of my interpretation.


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Is the person who writes in the abstract what is given below, with a constant Big Letter Syndrome, not affiliated with the ZhE?


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I'm thrilled:


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“Knowledge System of the Living Ethics Teaching...”


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Agni Yoga, “which is a unique phenomenon designed to serve the spiritual revival of mankind”, with “the unique value of the Living Ethics with a wealth of its ideas and practical recommendations for the development of self-awareness of a modern woman”,


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“Some aspects of this topic [dissertation] were considered in the fundamental three-volume work of A.I.


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Klizovsky “Fundamentals of the World Understanding of the New Epoch"', published for the first time in Riga in 1934, in the brochure of N.P.


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Banykin “Lectures on the Living Ethics”, excerpts from the Living Ethics and letters from E.


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AND.


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Roerich about women and children, and were also touched upon in articles by various authors


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(N.A. Toots in particular).


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“The dissertation shows that accepting all the true provisions of previous teachings and religions.


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Living Ethics


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(Agni Yoga)


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develops and deepens them, calls for the transformation of life, service to the Common Good.


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“The Esoteric Doctrine [what is it? Isn't it JE?] teaches that the Absolute is the Brahma of the Hindus, the God of Christians, the Tao in ancient Chinese philosophy. ”,


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“The dissertation provides a comparative analysis between the physical process of entropy


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(suppose the interaction between cold and hot bodies)


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and the cosmic Law of Unbalance of the Beginnings.


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It is established that in both cases, imbalance during the collision of the Beginnings leads to a crisis, and the establishment of equilibrium, on the contrary, leads to progress.


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” full paragraph, where is Sokal?


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“In the first paragraph, “Agni Yoga is the Teaching of Life. Teachers of Humanity” analyzes the most ancient ideas on the topic under study, dating back to the 15th century BC.


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and contained in the teachings of the Vedic Aryans


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(ancestors of Armenians and Russians, according to Academician S.M.Aivazyan in the monograph “History of Russia. Armenian trace.”)


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, in Zend Avesta


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(the teachings of Zarathustra), in the ideas of the ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrian-Babylonians, Persians, Hindus, Tibetans, Greeks


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(Heraclitus' philosophy).


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“If previous spiritual and ethical teachings realize themselves through religion and art, the Teaching of the Living Ethics is realized through science, philosophy, theosophy and art.” — greetings from theosophy,


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“True, although by the end of the 20th century civil equality was achieved almost everywhere, the cosmic Law of Equilibrium between men and women has not yet been restored. This is one of the reasons for the crisis processes of the 20th century in all spheres of people's lives. ”,


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“The Teaching of Agni Yoga states that the violation of the cosmic Law of Equilibrium of the Beginnings leads to upheavals and cataclysms. This is the kind of imbalance that happened on our planet.” — poor planet,


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“Education regarding the inner essence of a person, all its character is, in fact, an undistorted introduction of the foundations of the Teaching of the Living Ethics into children's consciousness from an early age. Currently, educational methods do not need restoration, but significant reforms, namely, from the point of view of the New Teaching.” — poor children,


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“From an early age, children should be introduced to clairvoyance and clairvoyance. The Subtle World must be studied along with subtle energies. There should be no division into physical and metaphysical in the minds of students, because everything that exists must be tangible and cognizable.” — even poorer children, this is the practical recommendation of the dissertation !


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“Thus, it can be argued that the greatest benefit that parents and educators can give children is: first, to equip them with knowledge, spirituality and all means to successfully combat problems and difficulties of life; secondly, to reveal to them the concept of the meaning of life, which consists in the knowledge of immortality and infinity.” — very poor children,


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“Deeply aware of the importance of the Teaching of the Living Ethics in the life of mankind, in the formation of intelligence and spirituality, the dissertant considers it expedient to familiarize students and students with the basics of Agni Yoga on special lessons in secondary schools and lectures in higher scientific institutions.” — from this place in more detail, what is the importance of the doctrine in the life of mankind, about which 95% of people You never even heard it in your life?


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—Melirius 08:53, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yeah, and physicists who speak positively about, for example, the revolutionary significance and huge scientific potential of Einstein's Theory of Relativity are affiliated with the Theory of Relativity and their review articles on Can't theories of relativity be AI in an article about it?


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Somewhere I have already read similar arguments on Wikipedia... —Alexander Ustimenko 08:50, January 28, 2012


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(UTC)


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Nope, TO is mainstream, but JE isn't.


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You're making the same fundamental mistake again.


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Everyone is affiliated with the mainstream, at least the majority, and only their supporters are marginal theories.


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—Melirius 20:11, January 28, 2012


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(UTC)


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I see the main strategic mistake of your Melirius approach to assessing sources in the following.


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You put the author's ideological position at the forefront, and implicitly assess it regarding the materialistic worldview.


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But Wikipedia's goal is not to protect a materialistic worldview.


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Wikipedia's goal is to reflect the prevailing points of view in science.


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In the natural sciences, your strategy could work.


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But in philosophy, the materialistic worldview is not dominant - since philosophy studies the ultimate foundations and causes of the existence of Nature, and not explaining the mechanisms of Its workings


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(which is what natural science does, which does not need “God's hypothesis”).


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I judge this not from the outside, but from personal experience.


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I don't know about Moscow, but in Novosibirsk, where I studied at the Faculty of Philosophy of NSU in 1995-97, out of 15-20 of our teachers, only 2 or 3 adhered to a strictly materialistic worldview.


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The topic of my course work was: “Living Ethics and Science, Experience in Sociocultural Research”.


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The defense of the course paper was harsh - I was clearly shown all the weaknesses of my work - but friendly.


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And my supervisor suggested that I develop this topic in my thesis with the prospect of defending my dissertation.


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The arguments were that this is a promising topic that is in line with the trends in the development of modern science.


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This is despite the fact that at that time he was about 60 and defended his doctoral thesis in the Soviet-atheistic years, which means that his entire journey as a scientist fell on these very atheistic years.


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But as far as I am right or wrong that the materialistic worldview is not mainstream among Russian philosophers, Abiyoyo can say more accurately.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 06:09, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yeah, you're right, I'm a materialist — spontaneous, like almost any naturalist, but the trick is that philosophy is not a science.


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According to it, on Wikipedia, according to the rules, any sneeze must be rigidly attributed and not presented as true, unlike scientific facts that are presented without attribution.


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In fact, as you probably know, most naturalists hate philosophers precisely because they talk about garbage in their opinion and, much worse, can't test their building on compliance with intersubjective reality.


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Moreover, the AK decision on the claim of AK:537 says literally the following: “2.1. Wikipedia articles are written on the basis of modern scientific sources, and therefore should not contain statements presented as a fact, and at the same time contradict generally accepted scientific ideas, if only from the context it is not clear that legend, legend, etc. are being retold, and not real facts.” — so far to all irrationalists and supporters of faith in the supernatural.


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On the second point: in general, again, we should take not Russian philosophers, but the full world population.


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—Melirius 08:53, January 27, 2012


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(UTC)


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In my opinion, your position is too radical.


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Philosophy that develops within the framework of academic science


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(RAS system and other national AS)


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Wikipedia also refers to “modern scientific sources”.


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But this is a question about the ideological foundations of Wikipedia.


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I'm afraid that if you insist on this position, you will have to conduct a survey in the community.


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But we have another way out of this situation - in the decision on AK:722 there is the following clause: “6.3.5. If the subject of the article is not related to science in essence, but can describe the phenomena studied by science, it should not be described as an exclusively scientific theory, and an article about it can be based on secondary authoritative sources that are not scientific.” Therefore, I suggest that you do not waste time organizing and conducting a survey.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 08:50, January 28, 2012


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(UTC)


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My idea is simple - philosophy does not have a rigidly defined paradigm, as in the natural sciences.


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In Soviet times, it was the dominant ideology - dialectical materialism.


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Now dialectics has remained from it and is widely used in philosophy, and materialism is not even mainstream


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(in my opinion).


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Philosophy is a free science that obeys its own laws.


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And it is not logical and counterproductive to require a philosopher to adhere to a materialistic worldview


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(for philosophy).


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(UTC)


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Again: philosophy is not science.


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Her conclusions and methods do not satisfy the ideal of rigor of scientific knowledge, which is why “all flowers bloom” there.


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That is why it does not produce knowledge in its most rigorous — scientific — version.


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I don't ask philosophers


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(as well as from supporters of “spiritual teachings”)


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nothing but that if they operate with scientific data, they operate it correctly.


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“Philosophy developing within the framework of academic science


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(RAS system and other national AS)


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” — by no means, there is also “some in the forest, some for firewood”, so this philosophy does not produce any scientific facts.


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As soon as it begins to produce scientific facts, it becomes sociology, psychology, ethics, aesthetics, or another scientific discipline.


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In addition, there is a science called “history of philosophy”.


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“I'm afraid if you insist on this position, you'll have to conduct a survey in the community.” I'm afraid I will.


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Organize.


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—Melirius 20:11, January 28, 2012


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(UTC)


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I prefer to rely on paragraph 6.3.5 of decision AK:722.


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The works of academic philosophers fit into the definition of authoritative secondary sources.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 16:01, January 31, 2012


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(UTC)


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In the sense of “authoritative for presenting the philosophical views of a given philosopher or school of philosophy on their own or someone else's philosophical system” — yes, I agree.


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But since philosophy is still not a science, any views from the works of academic philosophers should also be very clearly attributed and presented as an opinion, as Stanford will cite an excellent example Encyclopedia of Philosophy.


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—Melirius 18:45, January 31, 2012


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(UTC)


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Sources and formulations


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We start with:


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1. LIVING ETHICS


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(Agni Yoga)


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- a doctrine based on the idea of the energetic nature of all things and synthesizing the spiritual and moral values of the East.


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and western culture...


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www.terme.ru›Russian philosophy: Vocabulary.


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— M., 1995


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2. “LIVING ETHICS” Philosophy “LIVING ETHICS” is a series of books created in 1924—38 in the process of cooperation between I. K. and E.


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AND. Roerich and “The Great Teacher”


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(known in theosophical circles as Mahatma Moria).


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Dic.academic.ru›Philosophical encyclopedia


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3. AGNI YOGA or Living Ethics, the Teaching of Life is a religious and philosophical doctrine that claims to synthesize the ancient thought of the East, as well as scientific achievements and spiritual and practical experience of modern mankind.


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www.terme.ru›The newest philosophical dictionary/Comp.


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A.A.


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Gritsanov


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—Melirius 17:18, January 20, 2012


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(UTC)


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Addition


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In addition to the main definition, the preamble should reflect the characteristic features of the teaching of the Living Ethics.


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What will the Wikipedia reader pay attention to first of all - what will raise questions for him?


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1. Why the teaching has a double name - there was this explanation in my version of the preamble, but now it has been moved somewhere down the article.


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I propose to return to the preamble: “The double name of the teaching — the Living Ethics and Agni Yoga — indicates two main aspects of human improvement — ethical transformation, acceptance of moral foundations being and mastering the so-called psychic energy, that is, the internal psycho-energetic potential of the person himself (Living Ethics//Russkaya filosofii. Small Encyclopedic Dictionary. — M.: Nauka, 1995. — 624 p.).”


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There is a similar explanation in Yablokov's textbook: “Agni Yoga, or Yoga of Cosmic Fire, the teaching is called because it focuses on the mastery of cosmic energy, the Living Ethics - because it gives special rules of life and activity, the purpose of which is to reveal the internal abilities and forces of the body.” —Alexander Ustimenko 12:05, January 4, 2012


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(UTC)


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2. Those who have ever opened the books of the Living Ethics immediately paid attention to the language, the style of presentation of the texts of the doctrine, which is very unusual for the Western mentality.


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This is what AI says about this: “... the principle of building Agni Yoga is a mosaic that makes up a unique picture of philosophical, psychological, cosmological and ethical views.”


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(Roerich E.I/Philosophers of Russia of the XIX-XX centuries. Biographies, ideas, works. - 3rd ed. - M.: Academic Projects, 1999. ed. P.V. Alekseev. ISBN 5-8291-0003-7)


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and “The language of the texts of the Living Ethics is specific, reflects the aphoristic and imagery characteristic of the philosophical and cultural tradition of the East... The text of the Living Ethics is like a mosaic, each individual fragment of which is part of the whole, which manifests itself only after all or many of the fragments have come into view.”


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(Yablokov's textbook).


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Based on this, I propose to supplement the preamble with a sentence: “The form of presenting the material is characteristic of the Eastern cultural tradition - separate small paragraphs, brief aphorisms, mosaic an intertwining of ideas that develop into a meaningful picture as all the texts of the doctrine are mastered.”


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3. An important feature of the Living Ethics is its continuity with Blavatsky's theosophy.


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Therefore, I consider it important to add, based on Yablokov's textbook, the following phrase: “The teaching develops syncretic religious and philosophical views in line with the theosophical tradition


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(link)


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synthesis of philosophy, science, religion, cultures of East and West.


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4. Of course, we must leave sentences from the preamble, indicating the authorship, number and years of publication of the books of the doctrine.


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But I have a big question about the need for information about co-authorship with the Mahatmas of the East in the preamble, especially since even their existence raises doubts among some.


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You can move this information to another section, such as the “Interesting facts about the Living Ethics” section.


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There you can also transfer information about how to obtain records of the teachings.


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5. And there is no place in the preamble of the information about the Roerich movement set out in the last two paragraphs.


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A separate section of the article deals with this topic.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 12:00, January 4, 2012


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(UTC)


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Determination


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I have a deep suspicion that the definition of “syncretic religious and philosophical doctrine” is identically equal to the proposed “spiritual teaching, mainly ethical orientation, containing and other components of the sphere of spiritual existence: philosophical, religious, cultural, sociological, aesthetic, pedagogical, psychological, as well as practical instructions on spiritual - moral improvement of a person”.


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—Melirius 22:17, January 9, 2012


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(UTC)


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If these definitions are identical for you, then no problem, let's put my version


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(for me it is not identical to what is available now).


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—Alexander Ustimenko 08:59, January 10, 2012


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(UTC)


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For me, yes, but I have some doubts about the “predominantly ethical orientation”, as well as the standard term “spiritual teaching”.


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In addition, it would be necessary to listen to other interested participants.


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—Melirius 23:31, January 10, 2012


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(UTC)


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I understand that my arguments are scattered around a lot of discussion.


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So I will repeat them briefly here.


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Mostly ethical orientation - in the vast majority of AI on the topic, the ethical component of the teaching is either clearly included in the definition of the Living Ethics, or is emphasized in further, more detailed characteristics of the exercise


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(for example, in Simanzhenkova's dissertation: “A feature of this doctrine is its pronounced ethical and practical orientation.”


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Read the quotes from the sources in this and the main topic on the WU.


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Spiritual teaching is a definition, in its pure form or with a clarifying characteristic, given in several high-level AI: “spiritual teaching” - in two academic dictionaries and one doctoral philosophical dissertations, “spiritual and moral” or “moral and spiritual teaching” in 4 academic dictionaries, “spiritual and philosophical doctrine” in two candidate philosophical dissertations.


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This is quite a good reason.


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If we had a single AI that defines the Living Ethics and defines it as a spiritual doctrine, your question would not arise, we would have to give this definition.


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But we have many AIs that define this teaching in different ways, focusing in these definitions on one of the components of the Living Ethics.


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How can this problem be resolved?


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I see two options - either give 3-4 basic definitions, i.e.


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most commonly found in the most authoritative group of sources; or give a synthetic definition that summarizes all particular definitions and characteristics from all AI.


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“Spiritual teaching” - by definition of “spirituality”, summarizes all the components of teaching - religious, philosophical, ethical, sociological, pedagogical, cultural, and psychological - that is why I propose this generalizing wording.


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Thus, the logic of finding ways to solve the problem is simple and understandable.


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If my opponents have no objections to this logic, it remains to finalize the form of its implementation.


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My opponents have already spoken on this issue on the WU - Wikipedia:Forum/Archive/Attention to participants/2011/05 #Лазейка in VP:NTZ.


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My additional arguments and sources are the result of my final understanding of the topic that was actively discussed.


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My opponents did not have new arguments.


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So the only question is to summarize the results of the discussions by the mediator.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 04:56, January 12, 2012


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(UTC)


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I still don't see any definition of “spiritual teaching.”


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I agree on the “predominantly ethical orientation”.


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—Melirius 09:58, January 12, 2012


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(UTC)


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I may not have understood your question correctly, but I answer it as I understand it.


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Definitions:


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“The spiritual doctrine proclaimed by E.


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AND.


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and N.K.


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The Roerichs, is called Agni Yoga


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(or “Living Ethics”).


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(Roerich N.K.'s article from the dictionary “New Philosophical Encyclopedia”, ed. Stepin, Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences and from the dictionary “Philosophers of Russia of the XIX-XX centuries”, ed. P.V. Alekseev);


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“The philosophical basis of the Roerich concept is the traditions of Eastern mystical teachings, esoteric schools


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(theosophy, Kabbalah, hermeticism, Gnosticism), as well as the spiritual core of Christian doctrine, largely lost by the subsequent church tradition.


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The secret meaning of the deepest spiritual teachings is one.


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(article by Roerich E.I. from the dictionary “New Philosophical Encyclopedia”, ed. Stepin, Institute of Philosophy RAS);


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“Agni Yoga is a moral and spiritual teaching that synthesizes the ancient wisdom of the East with the scientific and philosophical achievements of the West...”


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(Living Ethics article from the dictionary “Russian Philosophy. Small Encyclopedic Dictionary”. Moscow: Nauka).


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“Original ideas reflecting the creative potential of spirituality are set out in the teachings of... N.K. Roerich and E.I. Roerich et al. These authors creatively used the experience of spiritual searches of the East, relied on the ideas of synthesizing various areas of cognitive activity.”


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(from the doctoral philosophical dissertation by Khomuttsova S.V.)


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In the first definition of two authoritative academic dictionaries, the Living Ethics is directly called “spiritual teaching”; in the second quote, “spiritual teachings” are called, in addition to the Living Ethics, Theosophy, Kabbalah, hermeticism, Gnosticism and Eastern mystical teachings; in the third definition, the Living Ethics is again called “spiritual teaching” with a clarifying determinative.


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These are only obvious direct definitions from 4 AI's.


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In a number of AI's, the understanding of the Living Ethics as a spiritual doctrine can also be traced, but less obvious.


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For example, in the fourth quote: it is clear from it that spiritual teachings are understood as teachings that reflect the “spiritual quest” of their authors and synthesize “various areas of cognitive activity” or” diverse spheres of spiritual existence”.


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The very concept of “spirituality” in the tradition of Russian philosophy is very popular and has been studied by many philosophers, both at the level of the individual and at the level of society


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(forms of spirituality in the form of religious, philosophical, scientific, cultural, socio-political, moral, pedagogical, etc. spheres of cognitive and creative activity of mankind).


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Among modern philosophers, I can recommend you read a doctoral dissertation Khomuttsov Sergey Vasilyevich on this topic.


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Spirituality, its similarities and antipodes in culture.


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Specialty 24.00.01 — Theory and History of Culture.


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BARNAUL, 2009.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 06:54, January 13, 2012


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(UTC)


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From the first quote.


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This is how the “New Philosophical Encyclopedia”, ed.


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IN. S. Stepin, in an article about, and not about Roerich: “LIVING ETHICS” is a series of books created in 1924—38 in the process of cooperation between N. K. and E.


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AND. Roerich and “The Great Teacher”


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(known in theosophical circles as Mahatma Moria).


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Published in Russian and English in Paris, New York, Riga, Urga, became the basis of spiritual and moral teaching within the framework of the occult-theosophical tradition of knowledge and esoteric wisdom of the East.


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Along with these books, the teaching of the Living Ethics is also represented by letters, messages and articles by E.


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I. and N. K. Roerich, a number of books of general theosophical content


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(“The Secret Doctrine” by E. P. Blavatsky, “Letters from Mahatmas”, “Esoteric Buddhism” by A. P. Sinnet, etc.), as well as the works of students and followers of the Roerichs


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(A. AND. Klizovsky, R. ME. Rudzitis, etc.).


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Being an organic continuation of the Eastern theosophical tradition, classically expressed in the works of E.


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P. Blavatsky, “Living Ethics” does not reject any religious and philosophical doctrine, believing that all of them come from a single source of knowledge.


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In place of mediumistic and magical occultism, the elements of which were widely represented in Blavatsky's work, the teaching of “Living Ethics” puts forward a kind of “ethical occultism” — development spirituality through everyday moral asceticism.”


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The quote given by the participant reads: “The spiritual doctrine proclaimed by E.


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I. and N. K. The Roerichs, is called Agni Yoga


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(or “Living Ethics”)” — here the participant tries to focus on spiritual teaching; it does not follow from the text that the author of the article about Roerich calls his teaching spiritual, but only what they themselves The Roerichs proclaimed it as such.


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And the second is by the same author, talking about his some interest and bias in the topic of the Roerichs, which can lead to silence about the occult nature of the doctrine, deliberate emphasis on culture and ethics in teaching, etc., etc.


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According to the second quote.


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“in the second quote, theosophy, Kabbalah, hermeticism, Gnosticism and Eastern mystical teachings are called “spiritual teachings”, except for the Living Ethics” — the statement does not correspond to reality, since the ZhE does not is called spiritual teaching in the quote and source.


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According to the third quote.


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To evaluate this quote, it is necessary to take into account other components of the cited article that allow you to evaluate it.


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This is what the first paragraph sounds like: “AGNI YOGA, or the Teaching of the Living Ethics, was created or, more precisely, as it were, transmitted by the Teachers of the East E.


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AND. Roerich and her husband N. K. Roerich, a famous artist, as a modern continuation of the ancient philosophy of all times and peoples.


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Therefore, Agni Yoga does not abolish any of the spiritual yogis


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(zhnani, bhakti, raja yoga), but is a new aspect of the one eternal truth.


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This teaching is intended for people of the New Age, which is already disdainful.


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According to the fourth quote.


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“in the fourth quote: it is clear from it that spiritual is understood as teachings” — the quote does not say anything about which teachings are understood as spiritual, but refers to original ideas that reflect creative the potential of spirituality, and that these authors used the experience of spiritual quest of the East.


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It is noteworthy that not the entire quote was given.


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Here it is in its entirety: “Original ideas reflecting the creative potential of spirituality are set out in the teachings of E. P. Blavatsky, G. AND. Gurdjieff, P. D. Uspensky, N. K. Roerich and E. AND. Roerich et al. These authors creatively used the experience of spiritual searches of the East, relied on the ideas of synthesizing various areas of cognitive activity.” It is emphasized what was omitted by Alexander, and which at the same time clearly illustrates the occult-theosophical family to which the author attributed the Roerichs and their ideas.


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Such an analysis of the sources cited by Alexander and his conclusions has already been repeatedly made by other participants, and it is still necessary to carefully look at the selective citation that entails is a distortion of the content and meaning of sources.


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Vajrapani 12:34, 13 January 2012


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(UTC)


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With regard to continuity from the theosophical tradition, in case you have not noticed, I propose that after the first defining sentence of the preamble the phrase be added: “The doctrine develops syncretic religious - philosophical views in line with the theosophical tradition


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(link)


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synthesis of philosophy, science, religion, cultures of East and West.


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“If you really want to insert the word “occultism” into it, please, only then will it be necessary to explain somehow that the source means the untraditionally understood “mediumistic and magical” occultism, which is rejected by the Living Ethics, and a kind of “ethical occultism”, understood as the development of spirituality through moral improvement.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 09:37, January 16, 2012


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(UTC)


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Alexander, how long can I, for the umpteenth time?


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According to the AI, the preamble contains information about the occult nature of the doctrine.


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And it is up to you to provide reasons for excluding this information.


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The AI presented by you confirm the occult foundations of the ZhE and the fact that it belongs to the occult-theosophical family of teachings.


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Vajrapani 16:04, 16 January 2012


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(UTC)


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I don't agree.


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First, part of the AI, for example, Yablokov's religious studies textbook or Simanzhenkova's philosophical dissertation, exclude the Living Ethics from the family of occult teachings.


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Secondly, the philosophical dictionary of the Institute of Physics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, which is discussed above, writes: a kind of “ethical occultism”, i.e.


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introduces some new


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(most likely a figurative comparison)


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the notion of occultism in relation to the Living Ethics - you ignore it.


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Third, in the current version of the preamble, information is entered on the basis of questionable AI that require additional discussion at the IDC.


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We will come back to this later after we have resolved the main issue.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 07:43, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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First, neither source excludes GE from the family of occult teachings.


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Secondly, I will not be too lazy to repeat for the “one hundred and first” time that the above philosophical dictionary of the Institute of Physics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, which is discussed above, speaks of the ZhE teaching within the framework of the occult-theosophical tradition of knowledge and esoteric the wisdom of the East, which you quoted selectively, and which I quoted more fully.


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And thirdly, the current version of the preamble is written on the basis of the above AI, to which you selectively appeal.


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I will leave the rest of your comments today unanswered, because how much can you pester the same thing?


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Van Helsing has repeatedly and accurately noted about the “knocked down” arguments that are resurrected by “living ethics by water” and presented as “new”, but the all-seeing eye does not sleep :-)


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Vajrapani 15:59, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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First, the “above philosophical dictionary of the Institute of Physics of the Russian Academy of Sciences” defines the Living Ethics as a “spiritual and moral doctrine” - for some reason you omitted this.


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And second of all, you are focusing your attention on.


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But even so, further in the source there is an explanation that takes the Living Ethics beyond the generally accepted occultism: “In place of mediumistic and magical occultism... the teaching of the Living Ethics puts forward its kind of “ethical occultism” — the development of spirituality through everyday moral asceticism” - you also ignore this point.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 07:37, January 19, 2012


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(UTC)


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Margin-call: “for example, Yablokov's religious studies textbook or Simanzhenkova's philosophical dissertation exclude Living Ethics from the family of occult teachings.” - quotes from these sources that exclude GE from occult teachings.


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In the absence of quotes, the slightest attempt to raise this issue will not end with a discussion on 10 screens, but only a request to the administrators.


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“in the current version of the preamble, the information is entered on the basis of questionable AI that require additional discussion at the IDF.” - put on the IDF until they are recognized as unauthoritative?


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Well, yeah, yeah.


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—Van Helsing 20:38, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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Yes, an explanation to.


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The argument of the form “the source says that the object is warm <скачок логики>, so it is not soft” is obviously incorrect without providing valid evidence “all warm objects are not soft” .


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—Van Helsing 21:12, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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I've already quoted these quotes.


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1. From Yablokov's textbook - in my analysis on SO: “However, the most developed and influential trends of occult philosophy were created in the 19th and 20th centuries. This is primarily theosophy and anthroposophy.” - in a direct list of occult teachings of the 19th - 20th centuries. There is no Living Ethics, although this is a quote from Chapter XVII of the third section of the textbook - “Non-confessional syncretic religious philosophy” - which deals with only three teachings: theosophy, anthroposophy and Live Ethics.


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2. From Simanzhenkova's dissertation at the SO Living Ethics: “... Another reason for the collapse of the movement was the fact that in Russia, at the turn of the century, a massive development of the ideas of the movements of the “New Era” unfolded... These trends represent the empirical side of occultism, which the Roerichs once actively opposed and, which at the present stage is rapidly updating, includes modern scientific knowledge and the latest technologies. It should be noted that in a wide field of spiritual and religious searches in post-perestroika Russia, the teachings of the Roerichs occupy a certain niche, along with other occult movements that are applied character. According to the author, these are phenomena of different orders.” Here the author refers the Living Ethics to some kind of “theoretical occultism”


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(new concept)


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- contrasting it with the generally recognized concept of “practical occultism”.


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And I quoted only those sources that are recognized as my authoritative opponents.


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There are many more sources that directly reject the occultism of the Living Ethics - but which my opponents do not like because they express “seditious” thoughts that do not correspond to them


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(opponents)


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concept of the Living Ethics.


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(UTC)


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Nda, I'm mad at the level of reasoning.


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1. Even if your quote is not taken out of context, it only says that GE is not among the “most developed and influential trends in occult philosophy.”


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What is not part of the currents of occult philosophy, the quote does not say.


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2. “Theoretical occultism” is also occultism.


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—Melirius 21:29, January 19, 2012


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(UTC)


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There is no need to mock, you need to read the sources I offer more carefully.


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1. Quote given


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(in the context of the chapter)


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suggests that of the three teachings - theosophy, anthroposophy and the Living Ethics - the first two are among the “most developed and influential trends of occult philosophy”, and the third is not included, i.e.


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its occult characteristic is insignificant and, at least, does not deserve mention.


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2. As for Simanzhenkova, I was a little mistaken, she refers only to theosophy to “theoretical occultism”: “According to the author, these are phenomena of different orders. If practical occultism is in demand mainly in the ordinary environment and becomes a phenomenon of mass culture, then theoretical occultism, to which theosophy belongs, as a broad syncretic philosophical system,...”


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About the Living Ethics, she only says that the ideas of theosophy influenced the Roerichs.


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And about the attitude of the Roerichs to occultism, she says the following: “... at the turn of the century, a massive development of the ideas of the movements of the “New Era” unfolded... These trends represent the empirical side of occultism, which the Roerichs once actively opposed...” —Alexander Ustimenko 07:18, January 22, 2012


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(UTC)


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In fact, before your comment, at the request of Melirius, I did not give any definitions, but only those in which the Living Ethics are defined as spiritual teaching.


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So this part of your comment is completely off topic.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 09:37, January 16, 2012


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(UTC)


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With all your commendable efforts, none of the sources you have cited defines ZhE directly as a “spiritual doctrine”.


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This was my comment about and it was very useful.


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Vajrapani 16:04, 16 January 2012


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(UTC)


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To paraphrase the well-known maxim - “those who want not to see something will not see point-blank”.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 07:43, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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Same mistake as above - I'm not “trying to accentuate... “, I give quotes from those AI that define the Living Ethics as a spiritual teaching.


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And let's not engage in casuistry and orissa - the Roerichs did not proclaim the Living Ethics as spiritual teaching, they did not bother at all with classifying their teachings; it is up to philosophers to classify and give definitions.


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As for the author, the philosophical encyclopedia does not have an author, it is a collective work, the responsibility for the reliability of which lies with the editorial board - in this case, an authoritative team of philosophers from IF WOUNDS.


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(UTC)


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Isn't your bold emphasis on certain provisions in the quote?


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And one more time.


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The quotes you gave do not define JE as a spiritual teaching, that's the whole problem, don't you really see it?


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“let's not deal with casuistry and orissa” - so let's go, because the Roerichs just proclaimed a lot of things and cared a lot about what and how they would write and talk about them.


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As for the author, why and why then is the author's name written under the article, if it was written “by the whole world”?


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It's a weird thing.


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Vajrapani 16:04, 16 January 2012


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(UTC)


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Unfounded.


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Give quotes from the Roerichs, where they proclaim the Living Ethics as a spiritual teaching.


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As for the author, you are again shifting the emphasis: the philosophical dictionary is a collective work of many authors, the responsibility for the reliability and adequacy of which


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(of each article)


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is carried out by an editorial board consisting of the most authoritative experts in this field.


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(UTC)


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In the quote, “spiritual teachings” are in the plural.


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I will not argue that the Living Ethics is not directly called spiritual teaching here.


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This is not the point - the answer to Melirius's question about the prevalence of the term “spiritual teaching” in philosophical discourse.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 09:37, January 16, 2012


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(UTC)


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Well, maybe it is common in discourse, but what does the subject of conversation have to do with it then - the preamble of the ZhE, if this does not apply to it “in plain text”?


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Vajrapani 16:04, 16 January 2012


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(UTC)


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Despite the fact that I answered Melirius's question.


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Read more carefully, maybe then you will understand what this question was about.


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—Alexander Ustimenko 07:43, January 18, 2012


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(UTC)


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The philosophical dictionary of the authoritative publishing house “Nauka”; the editorial team is also very authoritative.


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If you have any doubts about this, apply for NEAC/KOI.


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The fourth source is given by me for a better understanding by the Melirius participant of the prevalence of the concept of “spirituality” in philosophical studies and the intuitive clarity of the term “spiritual teaching”.


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You have an amazing talent for focusing on minor details that are not relevant to the essence of the discussion


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(in this case between me and Melirius), but rather leading away from it.


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(UTC)


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There is no need to discuss and attribute to me other people's talents here.


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Is this how you're trying to turn the attention arrow?


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Why?


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After all, no one obliges you to answer what you say “secondary details”, I wrote for those who will sum up the results.


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Vajrapani 16:04, 16 January 2012


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(UTC)


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Uv.


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Alexander Ustimenko, I asked you to give any definitions of “spiritual teaching” from the AI, since I know the definition of the term “religious and philosophical doctrine”, but I do not know this one.


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—Melirius 14:08, January 13, 2012


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(UTC)


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In this case, please provide a definition of the term “religious and philosophical doctrine” from the AI.